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Knox vs Espionage
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[quote name='detroy']I'm looking at buying either Knox or Espionage. What would make Knox a better choice? (FWIW, I already use 1Password, couldn't live without it)[/QUOTE]
I am using Knox for over 2 years now. I never tried Espionage.
I think Dan, our designer tried to switch to Espionage sometime ago but had to go back to Knox. I do not remember the reason now, I will ask Dan about it.Flag 0 -
I've used Espionage before. I wasn't impressed and turned to Truecrypt. The process with Espionage just seemed overly complicated, and I wasn't truly confident in what it did, I was always a little concerned, always a little worried and asking myself "has it [b]actually[/b] done it??"
Truecrypt, with it's containers made sense to me, I could add the full folder, without having originals sent to Trash or any of that nonsense. But the process of creating and then mounting is again a little tiresome after a while. <img src='http://forum.agile.ws/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/emoticon-0113-sleepy.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='|-)' />
I hadn't heard of Knox until Agile got it, I downloaded it and was immediately impressed in what it had to offer. Containers, but no overly convoluted setup. Plus, after using 1Password for a bit and being impressed with that, I feel I can trust the program, even if they haven't designed it from the start.
It just seems like a much sounder product, and I love the way it handles multiple files. Unlike Truecrypt where you have one massive container as one file, a Knox vault encrypts each individual file, so I have a Knox vault sitting on a FAT32 external drive taking up well over 4GB, but to me it all appears as one file. Hope I explained that alright. <img src='http://forum.agile.ws/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/skype_blush.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':oops:' />Flag 0 -
I also quit using espionage a while ago, since reading a few blog posts I have started playing with it once again.
My usage of the 2 are like this, Knox for small vaults etc, and espionage to encrypt my DB folder on my macbook. I prefer Knox's simplicity for the wife's usage and so forth. espionage I only use my macbook for added protection.
I also add 1P to espionages associated apps so that if for some reason the vault is not mounted, and I launch 1P I will get a prompt for the vault password and I will not get that pesky prompt from 1p to locate data file.
I don't use file vault, as I don't want my entire home directory encrypted. FV also prohibits printer sharing etc, once enabled at least through the mac that has the shared printer. If I remember correctly.Flag 0 -
[quote name='thightower']
My usage of the 2 are like this, Knox for small vaults etc, and espionage to encrypt my DB folder on my macbook.[/QUOTE]
What do you mean by DB folder? Your Data Base folder? of what? The one that holds (only) the 1Password keychain? or something else?
And why do you prefer Espionage for that? [I've never used Espionage, nor Knox. I did use dmg files manually] (I've also tried TrueCrypt).Flag 0 -
[quote name='Lewys']Truecrypt, with it's containers made sense to me, I could add the full folder, without having originals sent to Trash or any of that nonsense. But the process of creating and then mounting is again a little tiresome after a while. |-)[/QUOTE]
I never used Espionage. What do you mean by sending originals to Trash? (I did use TrueCrypt, mainly on PC)
[quote name='Lewys']Unlike Truecrypt where you have one massive container as one file, a Knox vault encrypts each individual file, so I have a Knox vault sitting on a FAT32 external drive taking up well over 4GB, but to me it all appears as one file. Hope I explained that alright. :oops:[/QUOTE]
Need further explanations: I know TrueCrypt creates a logical partition in a file [actually, I probably should say virtual partition, not to confuse with Logical partitions (vs Primary partitions) in PC.] But Knox does it too? Or perhaps you are referring to the Sparse Bundle Disk Image capability of (Disk Utility) Mac, where it is a directory of small bands (files), fixed in size (8MB? each) [I have not verified it myself].
In that case, Knox (or actually Mac itself, as Disk Utility does) does NOT encrypt each individual file 'individually'.
Also, I don't know what happens if some of the bands are damaged or missing. Can Mac access all the rest of the files that are stored on other bands? And what about trying to access a file that spans few bands and one band is missing/damaged. Can you recover something (if it is a data file)? Will it not run (if it is a program)?
Well, the above is not specific to Knox, and probably was discussed in other discussions on the Internet regarding reliability of (sparse bundle) DMG files.Flag 0 -
[quote name='Locker']What do you mean by DB folder? Your Data Base folder? of what? The one that holds (only) the 1Password keychain? or something else?
And why do you prefer Espionage for that? [I've never used Espionage, nor Knox. I did use dmg files manually] (I've also tried TrueCrypt).[/QUOTE]
Sorry Locker My Dropbox folder.
No real pref yet but it works really good with app associations where once the vault is mounted it will launch Dropbox for me. Or prompt me for the vault password if I try to launch 1p and the vault isn't mounted. That way I dont get that locate keychain prompt etc.Flag 0 -
[quote name='thightower']My Dropbox folder.[/QUOTE] ahhh!! How could I miss it. I read your post again and it makes more sense.
So do you encrypt the whole Dropbox folder? I can see two ways to do that: 1) Have a single vault in the Dropbox folder (and I think that this will not allow Dropbox to recognize and alert about adding/changing single files inside. Or 2) you defined the mounted vault as your Dropbox root folder. This perhaps may be the reason why you would delay the launch of Dropbox...
Not being familiar with Espionage at all, I watched their video. It looks really nice, and seems to be more developed that Knox. Although both are based on dmg sparse bundle and sparse image. I don't know why in their video, Espionage encrypted the ~/Library/Mail folder as sparse bundle, while encrypting the ~/Library/Mail/Mail Downloads as sparse image. Being set up by their Application Template Assistant, it probably has a good reason. (Is it for big attachment files that perhaps don't like sparse bundle???) Knox probably 'hide' the selection of sparse image or sparse bundle under the 'compatibility "for 10.5" or for "10.4 or higher"
I don't know (from the video) how Espionage selects the max size of the sparse bundle, when you just click and encrypt a folder. And perhaps the encrypted folder is actually a vault in disguise. So if you can put more file into that folder, it is the same as the Vault of Knox.
[quote name='thightower']No real pref yet but it works really good with app associations where once the vault is mounted it will launch Dropbox for me. [/quote]
what do you mean by launching Dropbox? Don't you start it on system startup? If so, why not?
[quote name='thightower']Or prompt me for the vault password if I try to launch 1p and the vault isn't mounted. That way I dont get that locate keychain prompt etc.[/QUOTE] Yes. This I understand. It is a helpful behavior.
So just based on the promo video, Espionage seems to do all that Knox does and more. Why go with Knox (putting aside the very important factor of WHO IS BEHIND the program [hint: Agile ;)]Flag 0 -
As for Espionage, It will launch DB for you once the vault is opened up. This prevents problems with DB opening up first and not being able to access the files when the vault may still be encrypted etc.. I don't really use this feature, (see below) It can also close the vault once the app using it stops using it.
No I don't keep it (DB) in my startup items, I use network location and created my own scripts to launch my apps in the order I determine so that all the apps are exactly in the same place in the menu bar each and every time. I have also been plagued with that somewhat common problem where startup items just disappear from the login items list. My script prevents this, currently the only things I keep in the login items are my preference panes.
Yes I have the entire DB folder encrypted. More or less just experimenting with this lately. (All my important stuff is already tucked inside my DB folder inside a Knox vault). Yes thats why the delay, for the launch of DB.
I am a tinkerer my nature so this encrypting my DB is not a necessity for me, but I have to say it is really seamless, in my opinion.
I am not sure about the video.
Like I said above I have both and use both (currently) but I always use Knox. Espionage has come and gone from my using it, and Knox has always outlasted it, in my use anyway.
There are very good points to both, If I had to choose one I felt I got my moneys worth out of and ease of use. It would be Knox hands down Agile aside, because I purchased it prior to there acquiring Knox, so my opinion is not obscured by my helping out here etc. <img src='http://forum.agile.ws/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/skype_wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':wink:' />
Also of note on Espionage: My DB folder is encrypted here on my macbook but this has no bearing on my DB folders elsewhere. So on my iMac at home the DB folder is not encrypted.
My Knox vaults inside of DB are always encrypted no matter where they are at. You don't have to replicate the encryption on each end a major plus for me. I have never had a problem with my Knox Vaults inside of DB, I think there is a post on Espionages site that says they don't recommend using it inside of DB. Let me see if I can dig it up. The special instructions that are mentioned for DB are exactly what I did when I encrypted my DB folder.
Short Story ....Knox rules ! Knox Syncs !
Espionage as a helper !
At least thats my opinion.Flag 0 -
ps I just never liked TrueCrypt
Oh also Knox lets you specify the default size, for Espionage there is some info on there site and its uses some math equation of its own to determine the max size.
I like Knoxs upfront determination of the size of the vault.Flag 0 -
[quote name='thightower']I use network location and created my own scripts to launch my apps...[/quote]
I assume you are referring to NetworkLocation app, by Centix. I've heard about it but again, never tried it. oh boy, you probably will cause me to overrun my budget... Knox, Espionage, and now that... :)
[quote name='thightower']all the apps are exactly in the same place in the menu bar each and every time.[/quote] Oh, I have a really unrelated question. I have a very small screen, and between the menu bar items of applications on the left, and the little march of icons on the right, I don't have enough space to them all. Now Knox is added too. Only Finder still have space to show it. Any solution for that (short of hiding or closing different icons). Anything that can scroll them? or maybe put them in drop-down lists?
[quote name='thightower']I have the entire DB folder encrypted. ... (All my important stuff is already tucked inside my DB folder inside a Knox vault)...[/quote]
[quote name='thightower']I purchased it prior to there acquiring Knox[/quote]Yes, I forgot, but you mentioned it earlier... Change that verdict to: Not guilty :)
[quote name='thightower']Also of note on Espionage: My DB folder is encrypted here on my macbook but this has no bearing on my DB folders elsewhere. So on my iMac at home the DB folder is not encrypted. My Knox vaults inside of DB are always encrypted no matter where they are at.[/quote]. Yes, now I think I understand your setup. Sound good.
I have some additional challenge, using also a PC. Once case is from a PC that I cannot install any new programs on, and I use the DB web interface. So far I didn't trust DB to put my unencrypted (as a whole) Agile Keychain there. Putting it in a vault would be ok for access on a foreign Mac (using the 1Password.anywhere), but what about the PC?
Then I also have Windows & Mac together on same machine. Each has DB, but I don't run the DB on the PC side, otherwise all the files are duplicated on the same machine. I probably would put common files on a FAT32 partition. (so far I was hesitating to put my 1PW keys on FAT32, keeping it on HFS+ only.
[quote name='thightower']I think there is a post on Espionages site that says they don't recommend using it inside of DB. Let me see if I can dig it up.[/QUOTE]Thanks. I'll look forward for that discussion.
Thanks for your elaborated reply.Flag 0 -
I just found out that espionage was breaking all of my public links (Generating) from my mac.
Once I removed DB from the encrypted drive and returned to its normal spot all links work again,
So Espionage is getting chunked again. unless I use it for things not DB related
Thanks locker I owe this one to you I was going to post a link from the screen shot above via DB but couldn't so you helped me nip a problem in the rear.Flag 0 -
[quote name='Locker'] Oh, I have a really unrelated question. I have a very small screen, and between the menu bar items of applications on the left, and the little march of icons on the right, I don't have enough space to them all. Now Knox is added too. Only Finder still have space to show it. Any solution for that (short of hiding or closing different icons). Anything that can scroll them? or maybe put them in drop-down lists?[/QUOTE]
I Googled a solution to this but had no luck. If you find something that can scroll menulets/menu bar items or put the hidden ones in a drop-down menu, please do share it with us.Flag 0 -
Yes please do post if you find one. I am interested as well.Flag 0
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[quote name='Locker']Oh, I have a really unrelated question. I have a very small screen, and between the menu bar items of applications on the left, and the little march of icons on the right, I don't have enough space to them all. Now Knox is added too. Only Finder still have space to show it. Any solution for that (short of hiding or closing different icons). Anything that can scroll them? or maybe put them in drop-down lists?
[/QUOTE]
This part of the discussion was split off into another thread. See [thread=23858]here[/thread]Flag 0 -
[quote name='detroy']I'm looking at buying either Knox or Espionage. What would make Knox a better choice? (FWIW, I already use 1Password, couldn't live without it)[/QUOTE]
It's actually personal preference. Espionage integrates with the OS more than Knox does because you can configure it to run with apps. For example, let's say you have an encrypted folder for Pages documents. You can configure Espionage to open it's container, file, whatever you want to call it, when Pages opens. I haven't played with Knox 2.0 (still waiting on the e-mail with my new key), so I don't know if it has that capability, but Knox v1 didn't.
As a technology consultant, I play with a lot of apps, including encrypting apps from the standard Disk Utility to TrueCrypt (which is actually better on Windows, IMO), GnuPG, PGP, CryptoHeaven, Espionage, Knox, R10Cipher, etc.
Oh, 1 more thing, Espionage supports AES-256. Knox is limited, unless something changed, to Apple's AES-128. To me that's a negative. Why? 1. We have multi-core computers now, so there really isn't any valid reason not to support anything higher than 128-bit encryption. 2. Choices. Some people like things really simple, but others like additional options (Numbers files might not be as important as Pages files) and the warm fuzzy of "better encryption."Flag 0 -
[quote name='tayker']Oh, 1 more thing, Espionage supports AES-256. Knox is limited, unless something changed, to Apple's AES-128.[/QUOTE]
It has been a while since I "played" with Knox, but this version at least offers 256-bit encryption, assuming it is AES.
[IMG]http://img.skitch.com/20100525-8g299iq1an26rmrc99hex3h8a3.png[/IMG]Flag 0 -
[quote name='brenno']Any plans to update Knox with some or all of the features that Espionage has?[/QUOTE]
For the short run we'll be smoothing off any rough edges of the current Knox product features. Over time we'll look to expand the base capabilities as well. Stay tuned!Flag 0 -
I am not yet willing to pay $34 bucks for the exact same features I can get for free using Disk Utility and sparse images. You have no features in this app worth paying for since all of the apps features are FREE in disk utility. I actually paid for Espionage because it is integrated into the OS with its application associations. I use this with Evernote, since evernote does not allow me to password protect my apps, so now my entire Evernote database is in an Espionage sparse image and tied to the Evernote app. If anyone tires to launch the app, they have to enter the password to open the sparse image in order to see my documents... seamless and integrated.
So, to sum up... you just took over an application that is nothing more than a simplified recreation of the features that are free in Disk Utility... without application association and OS integration, Knox is not worth $1Flag 0 -
Thanks for the feedback, jbardi.
Knox does include several features beyond basic OS X encrypted disk image support including [b]built-in backup[/b].
Sparse bundles should always be excluded from Time Machine and other backup/sync products specifically because if they are currently mounted by OS X at the time of a backup, any utility that backs it up will appear to "succeed" but data integrity is not guaranteed. At some point you may end up with a sparse bundle that cannot be mounted if it is restored.
That's one of the prime reasons why Knox's built-in backups will always close/dismount the vault: it makes the resulting backup a consistently valid copy of the original.
Knox also supports [b]whole-disk encrypted volumes[/b] (for USB flash drives and external hard drives, etc.).
It’s all in the user interface. We think that creating and managing disk images manually is a chore. In contrast, Knox makes these tasks easy. It additionally automates the backup of your vaults so you can “set it and forget it” including whole-drives.
Again, thanks for sharing your opinion. We really value all forms of feedback and appreciate you taking the time.
Cheers!Flag 0 -
I too am trying to decide between Knox and Espionage.
I would prefer to support Agile since I use 1Password and love it, and their Canadian <img src='http://forum.agile.ws/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' /> BUT if there are no plans to add some of the capabilities of espionage in the near future I may have to go with that since I find it's feature set (mostly integration) more appealing. Although I don't agree with jbardi's wording/approach I do agree with some of his points. The minor improvements in usability / features over disk utility have just not sold me on Knox.
So Agile? Any plans in the short term to make some improvements and sway my decision?Flag 0 -
I don't have anything to announce at this time, DigitalOxygen. If you have not yet done so, please [url="http://agile.ws/downloads"]enjoy the full trial version of Knox[/url] to really kick the tires and see if it is the right choice for you. Whether you decide to purchase Knox or not, we want to make sure you are making a very informed decision. <img src='http://forum.agile.ws/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/skype_smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':-)' />
Please let me know if you have any further (or more specific) questions or concerns.Flag 0
