Please Explain : Knox vs Disk Utility

binaryeric

I took a look at Knox a few years ago and thought "cool... but why would I pay for that?" I create AES256 encrypted disk images using Disk Utility (free), give them (much) prettier icons (free), very strong (30 char) passwords, and store those passwords in a separate keychain.



Can someone please explain to me why I should stop doing the above for $0.00 and pay for Knox? What does it do that Disk Utility and 60 seconds of other effort cannot accomplish?



I am very genuinely interested to know if there is something I have overlooked about Knox.



Thanks,

Eric

roustem

Just like everything that 1Password does can be done manually, everything that Knox does can be done manually as well.



Knox makes creating and managing encrypted disk images much simpler.

It also automates the backups, vault compacting, and adds support for Spotlight search.



I have separate vaults for my source code, scanned documents, financials, and research. After two years of managing these vaults with Knox I do not see myself going back, I am just so used to see the Knox icon in my menubar. I am hoping that many 1Password users will find Knox helpful as well.



Obviously everything depends on personal preferences, 10 years ago I used to run Linux on my laptop and think that building video drivers from the source is fun :)

binaryeric

[quote name='roustem']Just like everything that 1Password does can be done manually, everything that Knox does can be done manually as well.[/QUOTE]



Well I wouldn't say that everything that 1Password can do, can be done manually... if by manually you mean with pieces of paper perhaps. :)



[quote name='roustem']Knox makes creating and managing encrypted disk images much simpler.

It also automates the backups, vault compacting, and adds support for Spotlight search.[/QUOTE]



I don't get the part about backups? I use Time Machine to back up my sparse bundles... works great?



Yes, compacting (hdiutil compact) and spotlight (mdutil -i on /Volumes/{volume name}) support require 2 terminal commands so I suppose that isn't accessible for most people. But I wouldn't describe Knox as "adding support for Spotlight" - as if it isn't possible without it.



[quote name='roustem']I have separate vaults for my source code, scanned documents, financials, and research. After two years of managing these vaults with Knox I do not see myself going back, I am just so used to see the Knox icon in my menubar. I am hoping that many 1Password users will find Knox helpful as well.[/QUOTE]



I currently have 14 separate sparse bundle vaults. I don't have to manage them at all. I agree that it is a great system to have. I can see how Knox automates compacting and spotlight indexing and how that would be helpful to normal users. However, users can easily manage the compacting process with automator (free and hands off) and enabling Spotlight for 20 vaults can be done with one command. I suppose I would see Knox as a $10 "add on" to what OS X already provides rather than a 1Password level application both in function and price.



[quote name='roustem']Obviously everything depends on personal preferences, 10 years ago I used to run Linux on my laptop and think that building video drivers from the source is fun :)[/QUOTE]



That's craaazy! :)

Ben

I don't think RK was implying that Knox was doing something that was impossible to do otherwise.



People are willing to pay different amounts for convenience. I find I spend a ton of money that way, whereas my parents will drive three towns over to save $0.02 per gallon on gas (how that makes economical sense either, idk). :)



What may be no big deal for you may be a huge inconvenience for others. Some people get scared at the thought of opening Terminal, and have never heard of Disk Utility before.



Also, people pay for pretty. We all do it, we use Apple products after all. :P Knox provides a level of pretty that Terminal and Disk Utility don't.

binaryeric

[quote name='bwoodruff']Knox provides a level of pretty that Terminal and Disk Utility don't.[/QUOTE]



Perhaps in the process, but not in the end result. My vaults are very pretty. :) Although I need to access them via a dock short-cut vs a menu bar link :)

bulbous

I'm wondering the same thing -- I haven't really used disk utility images much (although I have some). Didn't realize there was a spotlighting issue with them, although it looks to me like spotlight works just fine while my disk utility image is mounted, but doesn't work when it is not.



Will spotlight work when the drive isn't mounted if I use knox?



I'm close to purchasing just because I expect Agile will make some enhancements to knox to make it even more useful -- is this the case (any clue what kinds of things I might expect)? (Likely to get significant free updates if I purchase now? Or is there a 2.0 upgrade plan or something?)



A final question is this, when does knox forget my password? I tried unmounting the drive, then locking it, and when I unlocked my computer, it still didn't ask for my password. I love the way 1password handles asking for a password, any chance this'll make it into knox soon? I'd love to see an option to automatically unmount when the computer is locked too.

Bill.

Though this thread compares Knox to disk images, a related question is what is the benefit of Knox when I can use 1Password secure notes?



Secure notes can include attachments. Secure notes can't include folders, but secure notes themselves can be organized like folders and they can include multiple files.



Roustem, why don't you just use secure notes for your source code, financial info, scanned documents, etc.? Do attachments to secure notes come with any disadvantages? For example, can they play havoc with the file size of the 1Password keychain?

MartinW

Well, the way I see Knox as being helpful is...



I have, like others got sparse encrypted disk images for secure data etc. So, I'm sat at work, someone comes over and asks me something that means I need to look at a document. I click on my "Document Store", OS X asks me for the password. I don't know my password. If I could remember it then as far as I'm concerned it's not strong enough (maybe I just have a bad memory?!). So I go to my next step.



I open 1Password. I bring up the password. Sadly, the OS X dialog won't allow me to paste the password so I have to enable displaying passwords in 1Password so that I can type it in. Obviously during this phase someone could easily have watched over me or, maybe, I'm even on an overhead projector?



So I just tried Knox and the 1 thing that stopped me thinking, "Meh, what does this give me that I don't already have" is the ability to copy and paste that password meaning I can keep the "Conceal Passwords" option of 1Password enabled.



Now if Knox were to integrate with 1Password by adding a little "1P" button and just asking for my master password, and also integrating the password generator instead of it's own one then I think life (in this respect) would be complete.



For me, it's all about usability. Sure I can do these things manually. But I don't want to. Life's too short.



Hope that helps someone.



Martin.

MartyS

[quote name='bulbous']I'm close to purchasing just because I expect Agile will make some enhancements to knox to make it even more useful -- is this the case (any clue what kinds of things I might expect)? (Likely to get significant free updates if I purchase now? Or is there a 2.0 upgrade plan or something?)[/QUOTE]



We have many plans in mind for both extending Knox, as well as smoothing out any rough edges we may find. We cannot give any information about what may come, or when.



[QUOTE]A final question is this, when does knox forget my password? I tried unmounting the drive, then locking it, and when I unlocked my computer, it still didn't ask for my password. I love the way 1password handles asking for a password, any chance this'll make it into knox soon? I'd love to see an option to automatically unmount when the computer is locked too.[/QUOTE]



If you've stored the Knox vault password in your OS X keychain then it won't ever be "forgotten". You can remove it using the Keychain Access utility, or lock your OS X keychain and would then be prompted to unlock the keychain the next time it's accessed. We'll certainly be looking into a closer integration with 1Password as an option for the password repository but again, we can't say for certain when/if that will occur.

MartyS

[quote name='Bill S']Though this thread compares Knox to disk images, a related question is what is the benefit of Knox when I can use 1Password secure notes?



Secure notes can include attachments. Secure notes can't include folders, but secure notes themselves can be organized like folders and they can include multiple files.



Roustem, why don't you just use secure notes for your source code, financial info, scanned documents, etc.? Do attachments to secure notes come with any disadvantages? For example, can they play havoc with the file size of the 1Password keychain?[/QUOTE]



While you can have attachments included with your 1Password items, they aren't accessible to the file system and they cannot be accessed on a system without 1Password installed. When we're working on a coding project the tools used (Xcode, editors, browsers, etc.) expect the components to be laid out in file system folders. The Knox vault works perfectly for that because it *is* an OS X file system like any other mounted disk.



Many other uses exist that also might not involve 1Password but still need the benefits of encryption: personal or business finance documents, inventions or trade secrets, perhaps even just a document with the family recipes that your great-great-Grandmother handed down. For files like this where the reliance on 1Password was for its encryption, Knox vaults fit in perfectly.

MartyS

[quote name='MartinW']Well, the way I see Knox as being helpful is...



<snip>



For me, it's all about usability. Sure I can do these things manually. But I don't want to. Life's too short.[/QUOTE]



Thanks for sharing your views, and welcome to the forums, Martin!

the_mace

I dont get it. I'm a big Agile fan, I love the emails they send, 1Password, their response etc.



Knox, though, doesnt seem to add any real value. It doesnt solve a problem and there seem to be richer solutions out there like Espionage ([url]http://www.taoeffect.com/espionage/[/url]) that at least takes care of the automounting issues etc.



For myself, OSX disk images and the native OSX interface work just fine. You double click on them they mount, you can right click and eject and they unmount, you can copy them around etc. They're easy to make and manage. I dont know why any additional tools are needed. Even at $10 I can't find the value.



Rob

Nik

Thanks for your feedback, Rob. There are lots of things that we can do with our Macs that people either don't know how to do or don't do because it's not convenient or easy enough. rsync is a great example of this: it's there, it's free, it's powerful, but I don't know very many people who use it. Just out of curiosity, I Googled "ChronoSync rsync" and found that the thing most frequently stated was along the lines of, "rsync is great, but ChronoSync is way more intuitive." Similarly, Knox simplifies the creation, management and backup of encrypted disk images and puts a pretty face on it. That in itself is worthwhile for many folks (including me).



That said, we look forward to adding features to Knox that will prove it valuable even to power users.

jpgoldberg

I'd like to describe my experience with Knox. I only started using it in the past few months, and I must confess that I shared many of the thoughts that have been expressed in this thread. I can already use Disk Utility, so why do I need Knox? I was frankly skeptical of our decision to acquire Knox. I am delighted to have been proved wrong.



To my surprise, I found Knox remarkably useful. Before using Knox, I had exactly one encrypted disk image, which I mounted infrequently. Since running Knox, I have about half a dozen that I update frequently. I certainly could have done this through Disk Utility, but managing those would have been such a chore that I only used it where there was a really compelling need. Now I can use encrypted disk images in many more instances where it makes sense.



People who really are comfortable managing many encrypted disk images through Disk Utility and other built in tools may not benefit much from Knox. But for everyone else (including people like me who could use the OS X native tools for this in a pinch), Knox really does prove its worth.



Cheers,



-j

vegaz

[quote name='jpgoldberg']

To my surprise, I found Knox remarkably useful. Before using Knox, I had exactly one encrypted disk image, which I mounted infrequently. Since running Knox, I have about half a dozen that I update frequently. [/QUOTE]



My experience has been identical, with the only difference being that I bought Knox just some days ago, when Agile offered it for a discount!

:-D

jpgoldberg

[quote name='vegaz']My experience has been identical[/QUOTE]



Thanks, vegaz!



It's always nice to hear that one isn't alone :smile:



[QUOTE]the only difference being that I bought Knox just some days ago, when Agile offered it for a discount![/QUOTE]



Well done!



Cheers,



-j