Quit When Closing Main Window

Examinus · January 2011

Hello,

I'd just like to say that I'm not a fan of this functionality. I know there is no set standard what the X button does, but 99% of applications stay open. I often like to keep 1Password open with no windows so it launches instantly.

Is there a security reason this change was made?

Thanks.

[Deleted User] · January 2011

Here, 1P (3.5.4.BETA-3) doesn't quit when its main and Preferences windows are closed. Which version are you running?

Wade M · January 2011

[quote name='sjk' timestamp='1295293772' post='19099']

Here, 1P (3.5.4.BETA-3) doesn't quit when its main and Preferences windows are closed. Which version are you running?

[/quote]

3.5.4.BETA-4 introduced "quit on closing the main window". And I gotta agree, I dislike it intensely. <img src='http://forum.agile.ws/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/angry.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':angry:' />

[Deleted User] · January 2011

[quote name='Wade M' timestamp='1295302927' post='19104']

3.5.4.BETA-4 introduced "quit on closing the main window".[/quote]

D'oh! Obviously I didn't know that when replying earlier. Thanks for the info.

[quote]And I gotta agree, I dislike it intensely. <img src='http://forum.agile.ws/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/angry.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':angry:' />[/quote]

Won't bother me with 1P; Hide or Minimize of the main window is acceptable if I want it left running.

I prefer it being one less app to discover unnecessarily running on systems with limited memory because someone I'm helping mistakenly thinks they've quit it when closing its last window and stubbornly resists using Command-Q. <img src='http://forum.agile.ws/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />

RobYoder · January 2011

Hello, Wade and Examinus, and welcome to the forum, Wade!

[quote name='Examinus' timestamp='1295290094' post='19097']

I'd just like to say that I'm not a fan of this functionality. I know there is no set standard what the X button does, but 99% of applications stay open. I often like to keep 1Password open with no windows so it launches instantly.[/quote]

One of the ideas behind it was the precedent set by the Mac App Store. It, along with other apps, is now quitting when the window is closed. We think this will be the future behavior of most Mac apps, and agree with sjk that it helps eliminate confusion about whether or not the program is running or not. If you set your security preferences to *not* "Disable automatic unlock for 1Password", then I think you'll get the instant launch you're looking for.

[quote name='Examinus' timestamp='1295290094' post='19097']

Is there a security reason this change was made?

[/quote]

Yes, that's another reason. Many users expect higher security from 1Password, and by quitting the app, it will default to locked the next time it is opened.

[quote name='Wade M' timestamp='1295302927' post='19104']

3.5.4.BETA-4 introduced "quit on closing the main window". And I gotta agree, I dislike it intensely.

[/quote]

Can you tell us what exactly annoys you about it? There are workarounds to keep the same functionality as before, but we think that this behavior will be better understood by most users (especially new ones).

stevebob · January 2011

Can this be made an option in prefs? In Notational Velocity, for example, there is a "Quit when closing window" checkbox in the General tab of prefs.

Dominic_S · January 2011

[quote name='stevebob' timestamp='1295451109' post='19206']

Can this be made an option in prefs? In Notational Velocity, for example, there is a "Quit when closing window" checkbox in the General tab of prefs.

[/quote]

Yeah, please make it an option! I can't understand this decision. You can hide an application, I know, but this isn't always the best solution - for Me.

If Firefox would quit when the last window was closed... <img src='http://forum.agile.ws/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/huh.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':huh:' />

So, Option please.

[Deleted User] · January 2011

[quote name='Dominic_S' timestamp='1295700275' post='19341']

You can hide an application, I know, but this isn't always the best solution - for Me.[/quote]

Got some reason(s) you can share why it matters? I'm curious to hear any specific, convincing arguments in favor of the original behavior.

Dominic_S · January 2011

Because this is the way "standard" windows behave on OS X.

[quote name='RobYoder' timestamp='1295325680' post='19142']

We think this will be the future behavior of most Mac apps

[/quote]

Maybe this is the future (I hope not), but at present quiting a window by closing it is NOT the standard OS X behavior. It is inconsistent.

[quote name='RobYoder' timestamp='1295325680' post='19142']

...and agree with sjk that it helps eliminate confusion about whether or not the program is running or not

[/quote]

[quote name='RobYoder' timestamp='1295325680' post='19142']

...but we think that this behavior will be better understood by most users (especially new ones)

[/quote]

Sorry, but I'm not dumb. There definitely are new user (especially windows switchers) and DAUs who don't understand thinks like "closed windows don't quit the app like in windows" and "install apps from dmgs", so yeah, things like the Mac App Store are helpful for them, because they don't have to think anymore.

But there are users who know what they're doin, too.

This is a little harsh, I know, but I can't stand the fact that developers removing options because most users don't even look at them.

[quote name='sjk' timestamp='1295704567' post='19342']

Got some reason(s) you can share why it matters? I'm curious to hear any specific, convincing arguments in favor of the original behavior.

[/quote]

Sure. One point is, that I heavily use cmd + w to close windows, if I don't use the app or a window stays in the way. Looking at your keyboard, you'll notice that cmd + w is much easier to press than cmd + h...

Another point: If you cmd + tab around you sometimes activate apps you don't wanted to activate. If you accidently activated a hidden app, the window of this app pops up. So, you first have to hide it again. Than you can go to the app you wanted in the first place.

It's a workflow thing.

So please, add an option.

Fooligan · January 2011

I know that this was added as a feature recently in a Beta build, but I liked it the old way better. Can you add an option to turn this off if the user desires?

[Deleted User] · January 2011

See: [url=http://forum.agile.ws/index.php?/topic/3318-quit-when-closing-main-window/]Quit When Closing Main Window[/url]

Fooligan · January 2011

[quote name='Dominic_S' timestamp='1295962714' post='19458']

Because this is the way "standard" windows behave on OS X.

Maybe this is the future (I hope not), but at present quiting a window by closing it is NOT the standard OS X behavior. It is inconsistent.

Sorry, but I'm not dumb. There definitely are new user (especially windows switchers) and DAUs who don't understand thinks like "closed windows don't quit the app like in windows" and "install apps from dmgs", so yeah, things like the Mac App Store are helpful for them, because they don't have to think anymore.

But there are users who know what they're doin, too.

This is a little harsh, I know, but I can't stand the fact that developers removing options because most users don't even look at them.

Sure. One point is, that I heavily use cmd + w to close windows, if I don't use the app or a window stays in the way. Looking at your keyboard, you'll notice that cmd + w is much easier to press than cmd + h...

Another point: If you cmd + tab around you sometimes activate apps you don't wanted to activate. If you accidently activated a hidden app, the window of this app pops up. So, you first have to hide it again. Than you can go to the app you wanted in the first place.

It's a workflow thing.

So please, add an option.

[/quote]

I agree with Dominic's post. I'll also add that I very often hit the "close" button at the top left to remove the app window, but then frequently navigate to bookmarks using the secondary menu from the 1P dock icon.

[Deleted User] · January 2011

[quote name='Fooligan' timestamp='1295998248' post='19492']

…, but then frequently navigate to bookmarks using the secondary menu from the 1P dock icon.[/quote]

Thanks for providing a reason for 1P to remain running when it's windowless.

jkwuc89 · January 2011

Add me to the list of those that do not like the new default behavior for the close button. Either restore the old default behavior or provide a preference that allows us to control it. For the time being, I am going back to an older version until (hopefully) this is fixed.

khad · January 2011

There is some internal discussion about this. <img src='http://forum.agile.ws/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/skype_wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';-)' />

Thanks for the feedback. Please keep it coming. I am sharing this all with the developers.

stedwick · January 2011

I understand you are just trying to be secure, but that's why there's an option to auto lock after a certain period of time (I have mine set to one hour). Now, every time I close the window it actually quits the application, which means I have to put my password in every single time I open it up, whether one hour has passed or not.

This is very, very annoying. There is a trade-off between security and convenience, and I thought the auto lock preference was to enable me to pick where the line is, so to speak.

Please have an option or something to allow 1Password to continue running even if I close the window. Thanks.

[Deleted User] · January 2011

Related topic/discussion:

[url=http://forum.agile.ws/index.php?/topic/3318-quit-when-closing-main-window]Quit When Closing Main Window[/url]

thightower · January 2011

My personal opinion

Ok, I can see somewhat see the rational behind both ways trying to make the app intuitive for new users. But personally I hate the quit option, It reminds me of a Windows app.

I honestly think a option in system pref if possible to suit both sides of the equation is the best bet. But I have had to train my self for a few other apps so this is not honestly that much of a headache for me. mainly just stating my preference here.

[Deleted User] · January 2011

[quote name='thightower' timestamp='1296314596' post='19712']

I honestly think a option in system pref if possible to suit both sides of the equation is the best bet.[/quote]

Actually it would be a 1P, not system, preference. <img src='http://forum.agile.ws/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

I think 1P already has more than enough prefs and I'd vote against adding another for this.

Here's what the [url=http://developer.apple.com/library/mac/#documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/AppleHIGuidelines/XHIGWindows/XHIGWindows.html]Apple Human Interface Guidelines: Windows[/url] has to say about the issue, under Closing Windows:

[i]In most cases, applications that are not document-based should quit when the main window is closed. For Example, System Preferences quits if the user closes the window. If an application continues to perform some function when the main window is closed, however, it may be appropriate to leave it running when the main window is closed. For example, iTunes continues to play when the user closes the main window.[/i]

Fooligan mentioned using 1P's Dock menu for navigation, which to me seems like it should be possible even when the main window is closed (and the primary argument I'd use for 1P to remain running after that).

Fooligan · January 2011

[quote name='sjk' timestamp='1296321504' post='19714']

...I think 1P already has more than enough prefs and I'd vote against adding another for this.

[/quote]

I agree with sjk's statement and what Apple's guidelines state. But, I would also argue that my 1P vault is an active document. Probably the most active document that I use. I have been sticking with the Beta build and I still find the closing of the app annoying. It is slightly slower to open compared to when it did not close. For the most part I try to remember to use cmd-h, but I rarely do that for any other apps. So, the closing of 1P goes against my typical experience in OS X.

[Deleted User] · January 2011

[quote name='Fooligan' timestamp='1296328885' post='19724']

I would also argue that my 1P vault is an active document.[/quote]

I agree it can be considered like that.

[quote]I have been sticking with the Beta build …[/quote]

Non-beta 3.5.4 was released yesterday.

[quote]For the most part I try to remember to use cmd-h, but I rarely do that for any other apps.[/quote]

Most apps I leave running with open windows are managed with Spaces (in a 3x3 grid), non-hidden. Space-switching is generally more effective for me than Hide/Show of apps, partly because it creates a preferable illusion of panning across an always visible virtual plane in the X/Y axis instead of more awkward layer (in)visibility shuffling in the Z axis. But there are exceptions where Hide/Show, Minimize/Open, and overlapping windows fit in.

khad · January 2011

While at this particular moment in time 1Password is definitely not a document-based application, I tend to agree with the HIG regarding the fact that 1Password can still be useful even when the main window is closed (e.g. Dock menu, etc.). I am putting up a fight for this internally. The last thing I would want to see is a bloody preference, though! I'd sooner simply lose the fight. <img src='http://forum.agile.ws/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/skype_smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':-)' />

Don't forget, though, you can also UNCHECK "Disable automatic unlock for 1Password" (Preferences > Security) which will maintain 1Password's unlocked state within the main application even across a relaunch if 1Password is unlocked in your browser.

Food for thought.

UPDATE: I did not intend to wipe out your poll, stedwick. That is not how I wanted to welcome you to the forums. <img src='http://forum.agile.ws/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/skype_smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':-)' /> I should have guessed that IP.Board couldn't handle a merge with a poll, but I am known for being a bit too optimistic at times. My sincere apologies.

Platypus70 · January 2011

Brr, this new behaviour feels like a bad decision for an app that most people (probably) want virtually always running in the backgound. Maybe since 1PW is a great meta-extension to multiple browsers, I intuitively expect it to behave similarly. And the browsers (in my case Safari, Firefox and NetNewsWire) all remain open when their main windows are closed.

Please add back the option to just leave it open once the window is closed.

khad · January 2011

Platypus70, I still think we should not quit when the main window is closed, but there is no need to ever have 1Password running unless you are working with the main application. The browser extensions work regardless of whether or not the main application is running. <img src='http://forum.agile.ws/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/skype_smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':-)' />

Browsers are a much more clear-cut case as they are most certainly document-based applications, so that part of the HIG would clearly apply.

Fooligan · January 2011

[quote name='khad' timestamp='1296415887' post='19774']

Platypus70, I still think we should not quit when the main window is closed, but there is no need to ever have 1Password running unless you are working with the main application. The browser extensions work regardless of whether or not the main application is running. <img src='http://forum.agile.ws/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/skype_smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':-)' />

Browsers are a much more clear-cut case as they are most certainly document-based applications, so that part of the HIG would clearly apply.

[/quote]

To add to this point, I use 1P for more than just browser integration and logging in to web sites. I have several other pieces of software where I need to copy and paste from within the 1P vault (on the windows version I can use the auto-type feature most of the time). That is why I consider it an "active" document for my user experience. I am very flexible on how this issue is solved in the long run though. I am not necessarily fighting to keep the app open all of the time. For example, if there is a more elegant way of accessing the vault through some other means (shortcut menu, task icon, etc.) then that is all that most users will need to access to their usernames/passwords.

khad · January 2011

It's not so much an issue of whether or not it is an "active" document but whether or not there is any useful functionality in the application [b]without[/b] the main window being open (e.g. the menu bar, the Dock menu, etc.). For what we have been referring to as "document-based" applications, this usually includes the ability to create a new document (or window/tab in the case of a browser), open an existing document/file, and so on.

I would argue that there is enough functionality in 1Password even with the main window closed to justify leaving the application running windowless, but Rob pointed out to me that even though System Preferences has some (limited) functionality within its Dock menu, it still quits when closing the main window. (Thanks for the clarity here, Apple.) <img src='http://forum.agile.ws/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/skype_tongueout.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':-P' />

However, if we eventually move to support multiple data files, the decision to run windowless will become obvious. <img src='http://forum.agile.ws/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/skype_smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':-)' />

Platypus70 · January 2011

[quote name='khad' timestamp='1296432566' post='19789']

It's not so much an issue of whether or not it is an "active" document but whether or not there is any useful functionality in the application [b]without[/b] the main window being open (e.g. the menu bar, the Dock menu, etc.). For what we have been referring to as "document-based" applications, this usually includes the ability to create a new document (or window/tab in the case of a browser), open an existing document/file, and so on.

I would argue that there is enough functionality in 1Password even with the main window closed to justify leaving the application running windowless, but Rob pointed out to me that even though System Preferences has some (limited) functionality within its Dock menu, it still quits when closing the main window. (Thanks for the clarity here, Apple.) <img src='http://forum.agile.ws/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/skype_tongueout.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':-P' />

However, if we eventually move to support multiple data files, the decision to run windowless will become obvious. <img src='http://forum.agile.ws/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/skype_smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':-)' />

[/quote]

I think that you and Fooligan (and myself) agree that whatever your definition, keeping the main app running provides "useful functionality". I consider my multiple notes as open documents and I access/change/create them typically a few times a day. My workflow is based on -TAB/-Q/-W and 1PW did just great in that respect, so I really feel strong about keeping this behaviour somehow.

(N.B. the unticking of "Disable automatic unlock" does not resolve this issue, and moreover creates other security issues)

[Deleted User] · January 2011

[quote name='Platypus70' timestamp='1296467244' post='19813']

I think that you and Fooligan (and myself) agree that whatever your definition, keeping the main app running provides "useful functionality".[/quote]

I initially made that point and no one seems to be disagreeing with it, regardless of System Preferences behavior that Rob via Khad mentioned. <img src='http://forum.agile.ws/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

Examinus · January 2011

I'm glad I'm not the only one that thinks this way.

Has anybody noticed that if you close the 1Password main window whilst another window from 1P is open the app still quits? This is bad, bad behaviour. Why should the app quit when I still have a window from it open?

I can open About 1Password, License, Check for Updates and Preferences, all of which close when I close the main window.

sandbag · January 2011

Just to add my pence-worth to the argument to retain the old behaviour.

In fact I'm not upgrading my main office Macs until you guys sort this out, as this is just going to p*** me off so much!

Ergonomically, it's a huge inconvenience, and here's why. I TOTALLY rely on 1password as a sysadmin. Almost all apps on the Mac respond to the red button by hiding the main window but NOT quiting - You are forgetting that this is what we are all USED TO DOING. It's a very difficult thing when dealing with dozens of windows on screen to remember to treat 1P differently by hitting Cmd-H instead to actually hide the 1P window instead of quitting the app! And the amber minimise button just clutters up the dock with another unwanted icon.

I had to use my macbook to work on yesterday, and if I accidentally quit 1P once, I did it 30 times - each time having to open it and type in a 20+ character password each time!!

FAIL!! FAIL!!! FAIL!!!!! AARGGGHHHH!!!!!!

For pete's sake - when making such a HUGE UI mod, provide backward configuration compatibility!

Steve - tired and FED UP!

EDIT: As long as the P1 datastore is unlocked there should be an active icon to remind us. You could put this up on the menu bar, like the keychain lock icon - or better still, oh yes, just leave the 1P icon active in the dock!

[Deleted User] · January 2011

[quote name='Examinus' timestamp='1296508078' post='19834']

Has anybody noticed that if you close the 1Password main window whilst another window from 1P is open the app still quits?[/quote]

I'd noticed that misbehavior with the Preferences window open but didn't check others like you did.

Quit When Closing Main Window

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