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Sad Day
Carl
Just Me ✭
So I was checking the Facebook feed earlier and caught that 1Password is now in the App Store and seen that TUAW had an article on it. A click later and I'm reading Lion only version 3.9. OK, no show stopper thus far as we all know Apple has their rules for what they allow app store apps to do, etc. However, I come here and find that future updates will be App Store only. WTF????
I realize this has been discussed to death in other threads, but I just wanted to add some feedback as well.
[b]TIMING[/b]
Safari 5.1 is released and we basically lose a functionality and stability because of the new extension (i.e. no support for basic auth, busted autosubmits, URL matching issues, loss of contextual support for awhile, etc.) Sure, I get why it happened and understand the underlying issues with the old methods not being possible anymore.
Lion is released not even 60 days ago.
1Password is near the end of its 3.x lifecycle (3.8.5 as of now) so it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that 4.x is on the horizon.
Knowing all of this, who would make the decision to roll out a Lion-only 3.9 version on the App Store????? Did you really think this through?
Worst possible timing in my opinion. You should have waited to do this on the 4.0 release. Remember how you didn't force the Agile keychain until the 3.0 release? Remember the transition phase?
[b]THE PICKLE[/b]
Back in the late 2.x days everyone was told that 3.x would be a paid upgrade. They were told their current license was for all 2.x versions and that there had never been a paid upgrade. Furthermore, when they were offered up 3.0 they were told that their purchase of a version 3 license would entitle them free upgrades in the 3.x train. Of course now, that really isn't true, is it?
3.9 is released in the App Store and it certainly is *not* a free upgrade for 3.x license holders. Of course, you can counter an say that there will be more updates for the non-MAS users but unless you start numbering 3.8.5.1, 3.8.5.2, etc. we're going to get to 3.9 pretty fast. (think about Firefox 7 coming down the tracks for example or a Safari 5.2) Is there then going to be two separate 3.9 versions?? The original one from MAS (which might be 3.9.5 by that time) and the new 3.9 non-MAS version?
Again, see above ... the timing would have been a lot better if it was done on the 4.0 upgrade. Yes, we get that moving into the MAS doesn't allow developers to transition over their current customer base which....once again... is why it would have been better to wait until 4.0 and avoid this pickle.
[b]ABANDONMENT[/b]
As has been the case in the past, Snow Leopard users will find themselves next to the Leopard and Tiger users with versions of 1Password that basically work on their systems but will little to no chance of ever seeing an update. In the past, this abandonment happened fairly late in the process. (i.e. Tiger was no longer being supported by Apple or Snow Leopard has been out for well over a year now) However, with Lion being out of the gate less than 60 days you're essentially dropping Snow Leopard users on what would still be considered the launch cycle of the new OS. Personally, regardless of what Apple tries to sell us, updating to a new OS within the first 90 days of release is not the most wise decision unless you're developer, etc.
[b]THE FALL-OUT?[/b]
This is yet to be determined but when I see in the forums that F451, Dave Barnes, and other really long time users are talking about hitting the bricks and looking for other solutions it raises a huge red flag. Also, I would be lying if I said I wasn't looking for alternatives as well based on this news. I actually surfed over to the Roboform page and was thinking: "I wonder how they are coming along on that Roboform for Mac beta that we're working on several months back". Some of the limitations that Apple has imposed (sandboxing, file location, etc.) in order to get 1Password into the App Store are fairly hard pills to swallow. This wouldn't be an issue if there was a choice. Ultimately, things will play out how they may but I honestly feel you guys are sitting on a very tall fence at the moment and and which side you fall on is going to determine the future.
BTW, if it has already been decided that going forward 1Password will be MAS only, why are you still selling it on the web site? <img src='http://forum.agilebits.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />
I realize this has been discussed to death in other threads, but I just wanted to add some feedback as well.
[b]TIMING[/b]
Safari 5.1 is released and we basically lose a functionality and stability because of the new extension (i.e. no support for basic auth, busted autosubmits, URL matching issues, loss of contextual support for awhile, etc.) Sure, I get why it happened and understand the underlying issues with the old methods not being possible anymore.
Lion is released not even 60 days ago.
1Password is near the end of its 3.x lifecycle (3.8.5 as of now) so it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that 4.x is on the horizon.
Knowing all of this, who would make the decision to roll out a Lion-only 3.9 version on the App Store????? Did you really think this through?
Worst possible timing in my opinion. You should have waited to do this on the 4.0 release. Remember how you didn't force the Agile keychain until the 3.0 release? Remember the transition phase?
[b]THE PICKLE[/b]
Back in the late 2.x days everyone was told that 3.x would be a paid upgrade. They were told their current license was for all 2.x versions and that there had never been a paid upgrade. Furthermore, when they were offered up 3.0 they were told that their purchase of a version 3 license would entitle them free upgrades in the 3.x train. Of course now, that really isn't true, is it?
3.9 is released in the App Store and it certainly is *not* a free upgrade for 3.x license holders. Of course, you can counter an say that there will be more updates for the non-MAS users but unless you start numbering 3.8.5.1, 3.8.5.2, etc. we're going to get to 3.9 pretty fast. (think about Firefox 7 coming down the tracks for example or a Safari 5.2) Is there then going to be two separate 3.9 versions?? The original one from MAS (which might be 3.9.5 by that time) and the new 3.9 non-MAS version?
Again, see above ... the timing would have been a lot better if it was done on the 4.0 upgrade. Yes, we get that moving into the MAS doesn't allow developers to transition over their current customer base which....once again... is why it would have been better to wait until 4.0 and avoid this pickle.
[b]ABANDONMENT[/b]
As has been the case in the past, Snow Leopard users will find themselves next to the Leopard and Tiger users with versions of 1Password that basically work on their systems but will little to no chance of ever seeing an update. In the past, this abandonment happened fairly late in the process. (i.e. Tiger was no longer being supported by Apple or Snow Leopard has been out for well over a year now) However, with Lion being out of the gate less than 60 days you're essentially dropping Snow Leopard users on what would still be considered the launch cycle of the new OS. Personally, regardless of what Apple tries to sell us, updating to a new OS within the first 90 days of release is not the most wise decision unless you're developer, etc.
[b]THE FALL-OUT?[/b]
This is yet to be determined but when I see in the forums that F451, Dave Barnes, and other really long time users are talking about hitting the bricks and looking for other solutions it raises a huge red flag. Also, I would be lying if I said I wasn't looking for alternatives as well based on this news. I actually surfed over to the Roboform page and was thinking: "I wonder how they are coming along on that Roboform for Mac beta that we're working on several months back". Some of the limitations that Apple has imposed (sandboxing, file location, etc.) in order to get 1Password into the App Store are fairly hard pills to swallow. This wouldn't be an issue if there was a choice. Ultimately, things will play out how they may but I honestly feel you guys are sitting on a very tall fence at the moment and and which side you fall on is going to determine the future.
BTW, if it has already been decided that going forward 1Password will be MAS only, why are you still selling it on the web site? <img src='http://forum.agilebits.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />
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Comments
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Full ack!
I'm not ready to switch to Lion yet and am waiting what comes along with updates. I hope that future updates to the iOS version will still be working with 3.8. I came to 1password because SplashData updated their iOS app, but that then needed a paid update for the Mac version (which did not work as it should).
To be honest, I don't see any positive in the what's new in 3.9 (why should I run in fullscreen mode?), so I hope, that 3.8 is at least maintained for a while.Flag 0 -
[quote name='pjm' timestamp='1315556338' post='46202']
To be honest, I don't see any positive in the what's new in 3.9 (why should I run in fullscreen mode?), so I hope, that 3.8 is at least maintained for a while.
[/quote]
The menu bar helper thing seems like it might be useful (see image). Losing the ability to store your Master password in the OSX keychain kinda sucks though.
[url="http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/823/screenshot20110909at627.png/"][img]http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/880/screenshot20110909at627.png[/img][/url]Flag 0 -
Paranoid, I agree with you.
MAS is flawed. MAS only is messed up.
Why do developers choose to loose 30% revenue to Apple and loose control over what they offer at which time. That's a mystery to me. But hey, there are plenty of stupid customers out there happy to spend their money at the MAS. So go along. But I'm out of this then.Flag 0 -
Developers don't choose to "lose" 30% of their revenue. They have costs that deal with order processing (credit cards, chargebacks etc) and bandwidth costs. So really you have to know what percentage they are paying today and subtract that from 30% to get an idea about what premium if any they pay for being on the Mac App Store.
Keep in mind that Apple gives you many eyeballs since the Mac App Store is included with every new Mac purchase to the tune of millions of new users per quarter. Off loading these tasks to Apple should allow Agile more time to test their product now that their breadth is wide and covers multiple browsers and Operating Systems.Flag 0 -
I know. But I don't like the world concept behind this idea. That's why I deleted the MAS from my system. You give control out of your hands and you hand that control over to Apple. Let's hope Apple stays "nice". But Google,Apple, Facebook they are all corporations and corporations make money. So I'm not so sure if giving them total control is a great idea.Flag 0
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[quote name='daggle' timestamp='1315557521' post='46210']
The menu bar helper thing seems like it might be useful (see image). Losing the ability to store your Master password in the OSX keychain kinda sucks though.
[url="http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/823/screenshot20110909at627.png/"][img]http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/880/screenshot20110909at627.png[/img][/url]
[/quote]
I had that idea years ago but my implementation would allow you to fill Application passwords as well. <img src='http://forum.agilebits.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />Flag 0 -
[quote name='hmurchison' timestamp='1315646961' post='47044']Developers don't choose to "lose" 30% of their revenue. They have costs that deal with order processing (credit cards, chargebacks etc) and bandwidth costs. So really you have to know what percentage they are paying today and subtract that from 30% to get an idea about what premium if any they pay for being on the Mac App Store. Keep in mind that Apple gives you many eyeballs since the Mac App Store is included with every new Mac purchase to the tune of millions of new users per quarter. Off loading these tasks to Apple should allow Agile more time to test their product now that their breadth is wide and covers multiple browsers and Operating Systems.[/quote]
What would give Agile more time for development is:
More developers and less support related activities <img src='http://forum.agilebits.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />Flag 0 -
[quote name='Carl' timestamp='1315709129' post='47567']
What would give Agile more time for development is:
More developers and less support related activities <img src='http://forum.agilebits.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />
[/quote]
Hey Carl!
Long time no see! Its good to hear from you, even if it isn't on the most positive note.
I'm moving this to the 1P MAS forum for organizational purposes.
We run a pretty lean mean ship around here as you know, and expanding the team is not always the best approach. Growing the company comes with its own drawbacks.
We certainly acknowledge that the MAS is not perfect, and will re-evaluate this decision if it turns out to be a poor one. Reasons to go MAS only now:
* If we started with selling both in our store and in the MAS, we can't drop our store and go to MAS only until v5[1]. That could be years away, continuing to fight with the issues outlined in my 2nd bullet
* If we continue selling only in our store (or even both our store and the MAS), we lose a lot of development time to things like licensing issues, managing servers, building internal tools to do the same things Apple already offers, etc
[1] If later down the road we find that MAS was a poor choice we can bring the folks who purchased from MAS into our system. We can't bring people from our system into MAS.Flag 0 -
[quote name='bwoodruff' timestamp='1315709870' post='47572']
Hey Carl!
Long time no see! Its good to hear from you, even if it isn't on the most positive note.
[/quote]
Same.
[quote name='bwoodruff' timestamp='1315709870' post='47572']
I'm moving this to the 1P MAS forum for organizational purposes.
We run a pretty lean mean ship around here as you know, and expanding the team is not always the best approach. Growing the company comes with its own drawbacks.
We certainly acknowledge that the MAS is not perfect, and will re-evaluate this decision if it turns out to be a poor one. Reasons to go MAS only now:
* If we started with selling both in our store and in the MAS, we can't drop our store and go to MAS only until v5[1]. That could be years away, continuing to fight with the issues outlined in my 2nd bullet
* If we continue selling only in our store (or even both our store and the MAS), we lose a lot of development time to things like licensing issues, managing servers, building internal tools to do the same things Apple already offers, etc
[1] If later down the road we find that MAS was a poor choice we can bring the folks who purchased from MAS into our system. We can't bring people from our system into MAS.
[/quote]
Sorry, I get that you have to stick to the party line talking points about how much the MAS benefits development but I seem to remember the main purpose of Jamie coming on board was to handle just this sort of thing. In any event, no need to debate about it as those guys are going to do what they want to do regardless of anything I say.Flag 0 -
[quote name='khad' timestamp='1315710947' post='47579']
We're making a specific decision now in order to keep our options open in the future. <img src='http://forum.agilebits.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/skype_wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':wink:' />
[/quote]
Noticed your mistake on the post so I fixed it for you:
We're making a specific bad decision now in order to keep our options open in the future. <img src='http://forum.agilebits.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />
<img src='http://forum.agilebits.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':D' />Flag 0 -
Well, please decide something finally. AFAICS there are three main problems with you current plans:[list=1]
[*]There are customers who don't like MAS or can't use it legally.
[*]There are customers who don't like restrictions MAS puts on 1Password (one keychain, no other sync options than dropbox etc).
[*]There are people who can't or don't want to upgrade to Lion.
[/list]
I'm in all these boats. I can't use MAS, options to sync keychain between my computers without any third party involved is one of the most important features for me in 1Password and I can't upgrade to Lion because some hardware pieces don't have a drivers yet.
For first two categories non-MAS version would be solution. I can understand the reasons moving to MAS as option, but as the only option ... Can you explain me for example how you can stop managing your own store if you have Windows customers anyway? "Lion only" decision is even more stranger. I haven't seen any explanation for this ("fast adaption rate" isn't).
OK. I understand that for all these people 3.8 remains the only option now. What development will take place in this branch? Do I have a chance to receive a new features? Or just security/bug fixes? Do I have a chance to use an iPad version one day as well? Now I can't because there is no selective sync in iPad version.
And one more question. If I'll choose to go to the refund path (I have a chance, most of such users probably don't), how an iOS version will be refunded? I don't want to go this path, I've spent too much time and effort with 1Password, but I'm not very excited to give my money to a company making such moves.Flag 0 -
Disco Stew
1. There are customer who don't like paying taxes. The fact that someone doesn't like something doesn't mean they can be appeased. It's not about customers not liking the MAS it's about how many find the MAS unacceptable how many find it acceptable and how many don't really care.
2. MAS 1PW being Lion only allows for the "potential" for iCloud syncing. Again how many customers don't like the restriction versus how many people deem it not a significant issue is the story here.
3 1PW 3.8.5 and beyond will be available some time as I've read that 4.0 isn't coming anytime soon.
Lion bring iCloud support and probably a bunch of other stuff that will make life a bit easier. Lion is a lot more than UI features like Mission Control Launch Pad and Auto Save/Resume. For developers it brings in updated tools for compiling, code analysis and now synchronization via iCloud.
It's may be more appropriate to ask people on snow leopard about what is so good and snow leopard that make a $30 to Lion a big deal? If you run PPC apps in
Rosetta that's a big deal.
The windows version does need to be licensed through Agile's store but let's keep in mind that only 4.0 is slated to be MAS only and that's not coming anytime soon from what I'm ready so version 3.x is going to be on the store for some time allowing people to migrate over to Lion at a later time.
If you purchased anything from an Apple store you contact Apple Support for refunds.Flag 0 -
[quote name='hmurchison' timestamp='1315767794' post='47850']
If you run PPC apps in Rosetta that's a big deal.
[/quote]
Diablo III isn't out yet and thus you have to have Rosetta to get your Diablo fix. That is reason enough to wait before moving to Lion.
Moreover, I personally consider it kind of reckless to update your OS in the first 90 days of release. We're not even talking 60 days in this case.
See my original post again - my biggest issue with this is with the timing of it - The move to MAS should have come at the 4.0 release and not beforeFlag 0 -
[quote name='Carl' timestamp='1315773522' post='47896']
See my original post again - my biggest issue with this is with the timing of it - The move to MAS should have come at the 4.0 release and not before
[/quote]
Do you think the complaints would be any less? At this point there's a choice to buy direct or go through the MAS. Had Agile waited to the 4.0 release and went
with the MAS they'd almost assuredly have to also go direct or people would have felt manipulated.Flag 0 -
[quote name='hmurchison' timestamp='1315774627' post='47902']
Do you think the complaints would be any less? At this point there's a choice to buy direct or go through the MAS. Had Agile waited to the 4.0 release and went
with the MAS they'd almost assuredly have to also go direct or people would have felt manipulated.
[/quote]
Yes, the complaints would have been less. Waiting until 4.0 also means that people would be shelling out money and making decisions on their usage, etc. on the next MAJOR point release as most would expect to do. However, not before that time.Flag 0 -
Haters are going to hate. Truth is the MAS is the future, and obviously it's working well for Agile thus far given 1PW's sales position. People can complain all they want about perceived injustice and/or the ills of the MAS, but the fact remains the folks at Agile are making a strategic decision and have obviously given it a lot of thought.Flag 0
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[quote name='hmurchison' timestamp='1315767794' post='47850']
1. There are customer who don't like paying taxes. The fact that someone doesn't like something doesn't mean they can be appeased. It's not about customers not liking the MAS it's about how many find the MAS unacceptable how many find it acceptable and how many don't really care. [/quote]
As I said, some of us can't use MAS legally (in enterprise environments).
[quote name='hmurchison' timestamp='1315767794' post='47850']
2. MAS 1PW being Lion only allows for the "potential" for iCloud syncing. Again how many customers don't like the restriction versus how many people deem it not a significant issue is the story here.[/quote]
Yes. But I think that it can be handled more gracefully.
[quote name='hmurchison' timestamp='1315767794' post='47850']
3 1PW 3.8.5 and beyond will be available some time as I've read that 4.0 isn't coming anytime soon.[/quote]
Now that's the statement we'd like to hear from developers. I've seen nothing more than "we released 3.8.5, so you see, we did some work still for 3.8" so far. What we'd like to hear though is something like "we will update the 3.8 branch with new features (Lion specific features excluded) until X and will update the 3.8 with security fixes until Y". Dates connected to the support for Snow Leopard from Apple seem to be logical thing to do.
[quote name='hmurchison' timestamp='1315767794' post='47850']
For developers it brings in updated tools for compiling, code analysis ...[/quote]
There is no problem to use Lion for development and to support Snow Leopard. And all these features (as XCode 4.x) are available for developers on Snow Leopard as well.
[quote name='hmurchison' timestamp='1315767794' post='47850']... and now synchronization via iCloud.[/quote]
That's of course Lion only, but we'll still have to find out how it takes off at all.
[quote name='hmurchison' timestamp='1315767794' post='47850']
It's may be more appropriate to ask people on snow leopard about what is so good and snow leopard that make a $30 to Lion a big deal? If you run PPC apps in Rosetta that's a big deal.[/quote]
Third party apps, drivers for third party hardware etc. See all these issues with Adobe products for example - http://kb2.adobe.com/cps/905/cpsid_90508.html. It takes time to work out all these issues. Some of us switched to Snow Leopard some months ago when some vendors released finally a stable drivers for their hardware. Yes, you don't see many of these issues when you use computer for web/mail/entertainment only. But for me who is working with professional audio there are a lot of third party stuff around and it all has potential issues. Many third party vendors have done statements like "don't upgrade yet, we are working on versions/drivers/etc to be updated."Flag 0 -
We have at similar problem at work. My computer at work is under Snow Leo, and I can't change for the moment.
We have a lot of servers, intranet, etc. (We are a Web-developpers company in France).
If a server is named "dummy" we can access it with "http://dummy" under all the Os we have (including lion) because all Os will interrogate local DNS.
If we want to call a local subdomain (like "http://athing.dummy") it will work unders all Os *but Lion and iOs 4* : They doesn't interrogate local DNS but only our ISP ones. It's a known problem that haven't any solution for the moment; and we are many people to have it (A few subjects in official apple devs forum) <img src='http://forum.agilebits.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/skype_sweating.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='(sweat)' />Flag 0 -
[quote name='ksio' timestamp='1315845228' post='48209']
We have at similar problem at work. My computer at work is under Snow Leo, and I can't change for the moment.
We have a lot of servers, intranet, etc. (We are a Web-developpers company in France).
If a server is named "dummy" we can access it with "http://dummy" under all the Os we have (including lion) because all Os will interrogate local DNS.
If we want to call a local subdomain (like "http://athing.dummy") it will work unders all Os *but Lion and iOs 4* : They doesn't interrogate local DNS but only our ISP ones. It's a known problem that haven't any solution for the moment; and we are many people to have it (A few subjects in official apple devs forum) <img src='http://forum.agilebits.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/skype_sweating.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='(sweat)' />
[/quote]
This can be accomplished through proper DNS zone delegation: [url="http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBkQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.zytrax.com%2Fbooks%2Fdns%2Fch9%2Fdelegate.html&ei=aTVuTvfVBc7CsQKQ69jQBA&usg=AFQjCNGwc5yvwI1v4lw3K5key2RfiMEd0w"]HOWTO - Delegate a Subdomain (a.k.a. subzone)[/url]Flag 0 -
I wouldn't have minded paying TWICE as much IF THE PRODUCT WORKED.
I'm losing passwords right and left due to the folder architecture bug(s), Dropbox problems, and data file(s) mismatch between MAS running on a Lion Air and 3.8 running on a Snow Leopard MacBook Pro.
Throw an iPad and iPhone into the mix, and I never know what will happen to my hundreds of passwords when I access them on a device.
If there's any program in the world I would want to have confidence in, it's 1Password. With that confidence gone, I feel like I just jumped out of a plane without a chute.
Every single day.Flag 0 -
I'm anxiously awaiting reports of how iCloud is working in the latest betas. I think Drop Box was a novel solution and a bridge to
the superior solution which is the sync functionality embedded into the application and functioning like a network resource only needs
to access the filesystem in the most basic of ways.Flag 0
