Post-Lion decisions

omich

Having a long history of using 1Password let me get some points straight where I think Agile currently [messes up] their customers to no good:



First of all, Agile changed their browser extensions not only changing their tool but breaking some severely important features (http authentication...). Almost every three days there were new updates, where we had to launch 1P, download and update it, install the browser extensions, restart all browsers just to face it again-and-again: we are still far away from pre-Lion integration!



Boys, almost every three days I was spending two hours, updating a tool which should itself help me reduce tedious work!



But then, I am coder myself and thought about Lion changes, new APIs, sandboxing etcetc and *hoped* Agile will fix 1P. We should have known it better but Agile made a good job at let us thinking, integration with Safari was easy or at least possible (as it was in the last years).



But instead of fixing the bugs, adding the missing features, cleaning up the new extensions, you moved ahead with MAS distribution! We all know that neither transitioning current users nor paid updates will (currently) be possible in the MAS for any application and even for the discounted price of 16€ you'll like to force us to the MAS and pay an additional fee for a currently broken 1P (compared to the pre-Lion features)?



Honestly, Are You Nuts?



..."16€ is a discounted price", "Apple changed the Lion-Safari API", you possibly wanted to streamline your maintenance for the Browser extensions - all well and fine, but apart for the wrong timing (fix 1P first, then move to MAS) you have ruined my trust in you: you have fixed missing features slowly or have no idea, wether they'll be revived (http authentication) at all.



Of course I can understand that being in the MAS is exciting. It's the best distribution channel for tools and software to come. But what have you done in the last year when Steve announced the MAS and Lion was announced? Developers had access to Lion betas for months, what have you done to adopt 1P to Lion? You probably decided to simplify the extension maintenance, adopt to the MAS policies and earn big bucks. No problems here except for the timing and screwing current users with broken features!





Consequences: 1P was running fine under SnowLeopard, its browser integration is currently broken. I'll be using 3.8 for the time being as a storage for secured data and look for a different browser integration solution.



Will I upgrade to MAS/3.9? Probably not, because missing features are still broken.

Would I upgrade to 3.9 from Agile directly? Probably yes hoping that the missing features are fixed.

Will I upgrade to 4? If the browser integration is fixed, *definitly* no matter if I'll have to pay the discounted or full MAS price.



ps: why did I upgrade to 1P3? because of the continued browser integration support and DropBox support, I haven't used any other new feature compared to V2



pps: why premium Browser integration is fundamental to 1P? Casual users do not need multiple account per domain, securely generated passwords, tag based search for hundreds of sensible data entries or an HTML export/publish feature. To stress a cliché the "pro-users" is where 1P shines and for those having no httpauth support is a nightmare come true, it's a car without a gear shift, a rocket running on candles.

The Doctor

Well....I have some broken things too and I'm not particularly happy about that, but I think your post isn't quite fair or accurate.



Apple removed the scripting that allowed the 3.5 and prior versions of 1P to work with Safari. So, yes, that first extension was a a UI monstrosity and it barely functioned. But it did sort of work. As opposed to, say, Adobe with a zillion more resources still not having their Flash or PDF readers working nearly at all.



So, since most people like to update to the newest browsers and Apple made Safari 3.5.1 available to Snow Leopard folks (perhaps they shouldn't) then I don't see much choice that Agile boys had.



I miss some of those scripting features too, but we've gotten a lot of them back in a very short period of time...if I'm being honest.



The only real concern I have with the MAS move is the speed with which Agile can push hot fixes. I'm hoping that since 3.9+ uses the extension framework no future version of Safari will break it completely, but if it does, Apple is not the most helpful in making things move quickly through their processes.



As for pricing....I paid $5 for the iOS pro version when it was a mess. Now it's $20. So, if you want a stable shiny Lion MAS product...don't upgrade and then pay $50 for that product. This one has problems and we are being compensated by way of a sizable discount.



Anyway...just my 2 cents.

Ben

Hi omich,



> Honestly, Are You Nuts?



While nuts are composed of a lot of water, and so are we, I can say with some certainty that there is a clear distinction.

See:



Nuts:

[img]http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/einstein/images/lega-walnut-l.jpg[/img]



Us:

[img]http://i.agilebits.com/rk/skitched-20110530-151116.png[/img]





Taking a second look, I can see how there could be some confusion.



In all seriousness: we've been working very hard on the browser extensions and I believe most of the major issues have been fixed. Yes, HTTP auth is still broken. Unfortunately, that one may be out of our hands (as explained in a number of threads). What other lingering issues are you having? I know one of the big ones was contextual (right click) menus and we just recently re-engineered that and it is now working in all browsers.

omich

[quote name='rwross' timestamp='1315576688' post='46366']

As for pricing....I paid $5 for the iOS pro version when it was a mess. Now it's $20. So, if you want a stable shiny Lion MAS product...don't upgrade and then pay $50 for that product. This one has problems and we are being compensated by way of a sizable discount.

[/quote]



I have no problems with paying almost any (reasonable) price when the tool provides the features I need.

Currently one of two main features of 1P is broken, hence 1P as a tool is broken for me...



[quote name='bwoodruff' timestamp='1315576725' post='46369']

We've been working very hard on the browser extensions and I believe most of the major issues have been fixed. Yes, HTTP auth is still broken. Unfortunately, that one may be out of our hands (as explained in a number of threads). What other lingering issues are you having? I know one of the big ones was contextual (right click) menus and we just recently re-engineered that and it is now working in all browsers.

[/quote]



Good job at shifting attention away from a core broken feature: HTTP auth is vital



Just a question: would it have been - theoretically - possible to support Safari HTTP auth support if you would not have redesigned your extensions (and adhere to the MAS policies)? Be honest, that way, we can focus on Apple to provide the appropriate API (maybe, someday...)

Ben

HTTP auth has nothing (absolutely nothing) to do with the MAS.



The problem, as I understand it, is that Safari 5.1 does not provide an API for us to use to integrate with HTTP authentication windows.



It's really Safari 5.1's fault, not the App Store rules.



As far as I know, if we had a way to access the HTTP auth window via Safari, we could do it. MAS or not.

omich

Hm, I am no expert at scripting between applications but I wonder, if GUI scripting is really dead in Safari 5.1?

I've downloaded UI Browser (http://pfiddlesoft.com/uibrowser/) and can easily click to get the AppleScript path to the login and password field of an open HTTP Auth dialog and fill out the fields by means of a script.

That let me wonder: is GUI scripting really broken/dead/non-functional in Lion?

Have you tried that option?

Maybe 1P could move to a menu bar item (and not embed itself into the http auth dialog) and "GUI script" Safari from that position...

Ben

Thanks, I would guess that our developers have seen this option but I will pass it along to them in case they have not. <img src='http://forum.agilebits.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />



Edit: I got a very fast response from our developers saying that this option is completely dead for applications that are sandboxed. Apparently there is also some question about the longevity of such a solution for non-sandboxed apps.

fuerst

I completely second omich's concerns.

Question for me is: are there any useful alternative password manager apps available which support good browser integration?

Catcher

[quote name='fuerst' timestamp='1315812101' post='48074']

I completely second omich's concerns.

Question for me is: are there any useful alternative password manager apps available which support good browser integration?

[/quote]



I can't believe you haven't heard of Google but if you navigate to their site and put in that phrase you will *probably* find the answer you were looking for.



HTH



C

Catcher

[quote name='omich' timestamp='1315575643' post='46354']

Having a long history of using 1Password let me get some points straight where I think Agile currently [messes up] their customers to no good:



First of all, Agile changed their browser extensions not only changing their tool but breaking some severely important features (http authentication...). Almost every three days there were new updates, where we had to launch 1P, download and update it, install the browser extensions, restart all browsers just to face it again-and-again: we are still far away from pre-Lion integration!



Boys, almost every three days I was spending two hours, updating a tool which should itself help me reduce tedious work!



But then, I am coder myself and thought about Lion changes, new APIs, sandboxing etcetc and *hoped* Agile will fix 1P. We should have known it better but Agile made a good job at let us thinking, integration with Safari was easy or at least possible (as it was in the last years).



But instead of fixing the bugs, adding the missing features, cleaning up the new extensions, you moved ahead with MAS distribution! We all know that neither transitioning current users nor paid updates will (currently) be possible in the MAS for any application and even for the discounted price of 16€ you'll like to force us to the MAS and pay an additional fee for a currently broken 1P (compared to the pre-Lion features)?



Honestly, Are You Nuts?



..."16€ is a discounted price", "Apple changed the Lion-Safari API", you possibly wanted to streamline your maintenance for the Browser extensions - all well and fine, but apart for the wrong timing (fix 1P first, then move to MAS) you have ruined my trust in you: you have fixed missing features slowly or have no idea, wether they'll be revived (http authentication) at all.



Of course I can understand that being in the MAS is exciting. It's the best distribution channel for tools and software to come. But what have you done in the last year when Steve announced the MAS and Lion was announced? Developers had access to Lion betas for months, what have you done to adopt 1P to Lion? You probably decided to simplify the extension maintenance, adopt to the MAS policies and earn big bucks. No problems here except for the timing and screwing current users with broken features!





Consequences: 1P was running fine under SnowLeopard, its browser integration is currently broken. I'll be using 3.8 for the time being as a storage for secured data and look for a different browser integration solution.



Will I upgrade to MAS/3.9? Probably not, because missing features are still broken.

Would I upgrade to 3.9 from Agile directly? Probably yes hoping that the missing features are fixed.

Will I upgrade to 4? If the browser integration is fixed, *definitly* no matter if I'll have to pay the discounted or full MAS price.



ps: why did I upgrade to 1P3? because of the continued browser integration support and DropBox support, I haven't used any other new feature compared to V2



pps: why premium Browser integration is fundamental to 1P? Casual users do not need multiple account per domain, securely generated passwords, tag based search for hundreds of sensible data entries or an HTML export/publish feature. To stress a cliché the "pro-users" is where 1P shines and for those having no httpauth support is a nightmare come true, it's a car without a gear shift, a rocket running on candles.

[/quote]



As a coder, had you thought of offering your services to Agile? I'm guessing, like me - although in a completely different area - you're freelance? Could be some extra income there for you. Although a direct approach rather than via these forums would be your best bet. You wouldn't believe the number of armchair coders that post here but in reality couldn't hold a job down doing exactly what they claim.

omich

@Catcher: I am currently focused on iOS and have some exciting iOS projects running, but in the first place, Agile most probably already has cool coders.

In my opinion their current problem is more on the management/administration level: in order to get into the MAS and sell a lot of licenses, they have chosen to drop some vital features. I would have chosen a different way or at least provided some more options (1P basic in MAS, support and sale of all versions on agile.com, external downloads of "plugins" for complete browser integration even by means of hacks or whatever).



Face it: 1P solves a very narrow feature request; with the current direction it's more a casual tool than a powertool.



But maybe it's not Agile fault alone, Apple's focus on sandboxing comes at a price: previously common interactions/customizations are hardly possible anymore. Apple solved that in Lion with powerbox daemons on a system level - they "only" left externals alone.

Catcher

[quote name='omich' timestamp='1315832074' post='48131']

@Catcher: I am currently focused on iOS and have some exciting iOS projects running, but in the first place, Agile most probably already has cool coders.

In my opinion their current problem is more on the management/administration level: in order to get into the MAS and sell a lot of licenses, they have chosen to drop some vital features. I would have chosen a different way or at least provided some more options (1P basic in MAS, support and sale of all versions on agile.com, external downloads of "plugins" for complete browser integration even by means of hacks or whatever).



Face it: 1P solves a very narrow feature request; with the current direction it's more a casual tool than a powertool.



But maybe it's not Agile fault alone, Apple's focus on sandboxing comes at a price: previously common interactions/customizations are hardly possible anymore. Apple solved that in Lion with powerbox daemons on a system level - they "only" left externals alone.

[/quote]



Actually I have no idea what a powertool is. I've seen mention on these forums of 'power users' and 'sophisticated users' but have no idea what that means. I don't know how I'd classify myself or whether it's even necessary to do so but I guess there are some bragging rites that surface here. So, started using email in 1984 - seen web browsers develop from Mosaic to Netscape to Firefox. Seen Microsoft hijack the way we use email (against all RFC'S) ...



Things change - not always for the better - but I don't believe that Agile have acted out of any sense of devilment or mischievousness. They are a commercial company trying to secure the best for their product and users and themselves. The way they are progressing purchasing and updates now is an ideal way forward for me. So I'm happy - maybe Agile has realised that the Grey Panther market is worth pursuing,,,and that GP is me <img src='http://forum.agilebits.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />



I'm also not a fanboy - I've had my wrists privately slapped for comments I've made in these forums in the past