Mac App Store version versus "website" version of 1Password

jaspreets

To Whom It May Concern:





I sincerely hope this e-mail finds you well. When I originally learned about the fork to the MAS, I passed it up. Why? Because of all the things you COULDN'T DO with the original release of the 1password on the MAS.



I cannot find the original forum post, but the limitations of the MAS 1password seemed to outweigh the initial low cost as well the included upgrade to 4.0. Unbeknownst to me is that the MAS would become the [b]preferred[/b] 1password version.



Figuring the limitations imposed by Apple would lead to the MAS being a handicapped version of the direct from AgileBits version, I passed on the opportunity to purchase the MAS version of 1password.



Had I known that by sticking to 1password 3.8.x I was limiting myself on Lion and future versions of 1password, I would have easily purchased 1password and just not installed it.



Now, I come to learn that the MAS is the one to have... I just read all the features available in 3.9 that are not available to me (even with the latest beta).



I've been an AgileBits supporter since I purchased a MBP almost 3.5 years ago. I have owned every version (single user, family user, Windows, iOS, iPad, as well as Knox). I have beta tested every version you guys have ever released (OS X and Windows) and provided feedback on the forums.





I am greatly disappointed to learn that AgileBits did not go to greater lengths in explaining their future plans with 1password.



I would highly recommend that AgileBits offer some sort of concrete upgrade path to your loyal users as well as what your future intentions are with the two versions i.e., do you plan on keeping parity between future versions of 1password b/w the MAS and the direct, from AgileBits version?





Moving forward, I don't know what I'm going to do. I love 1password and have been a fanboy of AgileBits software but honestly feel betrayed by the company's recent actions regarding the two versions of 1password.





Sincerely,



-Jaspreet Sidhu

Nik

Hello, Jaspreet. Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts with us. Your disappointment is understandable, and I'm sorry for it. We can only share with you what we know ourselves, and Dave (1Password's co-creator and co-founder of our company) posted his current thoughts on the Mac App Store when 1Password 3.9 first went on sale there.



[url="http://forum.agilebits.com/index.php?/topic/8048-1password-only-from-app-store/page__view__findpost__p__45733"]http://forum.agilebi...dpost__p__45733[/url]



[quote name='jaspreets' timestamp='1317399652' post='51888']

Now, I come to learn that the MAS is the one to have... I just read all the features available in 3.9 that are not available to me (even with the latest beta).[/quote]

Can you elaborate? Since 1Password 3.9 went on sale in the Mac App Store, we've already published several beta and a few non-beta updates to non-MAS 1Password 3.8.x; in fact, since updates have to be reviewed before they appear in the App Store, our MAS customers are waiting for some of the changes and fixes that you, as a 1Password 3.8.x user, already enjoy (for example, Chromium and Canary support has been added to 3.8.x already, but is not yet available in the MAS version).



[quote]I've been an AgileBits supporter since I purchased a MBP almost 3.5 years ago. I have owned every version (single user, family user, Windows, iOS, iPad, as well as Knox). I have beta tested every version you guys have ever released (OS X and Windows) and provided feedback on the forums.[/quote]

Thank you. We very much appreciate your support over the years, and are very sorry that you feel betrayed by us. All we want to do is create great software, and we're hoping that selling through the Mac App Store will leave us more time to do just that in the future.

jaspreets

So, you still haven't answered the question about what your future update table is... do you plan on bringing feature parity to the MAS vs non-MAS versions? At the least, I would think the non-MAS versions would have better features / support since they aren't hamstrung by the MAS process?





What about 4.0 and moving on? is the MAS going to become the preferred version?

Nik

Thanks for following up, Jaspreet. 1Password 3.8.x already does have better support due to its faster update/release cycle. The non-MAS version is the one that has the latest updates that have yet to be incorporated into the MAS version.



Currently, the plan is to go MAS-only for version 4.

ChrisKnight

[quote name='Nik' timestamp='1317440505' post='51946']

Thanks for following up, Jaspreet. 1Password 3.8.x already does have better support due to its faster update/release cycle. The non-MAS version is the one that has the latest updates that have yet to be incorporated into the MAS version.



Currently, the plan is to go MAS-only for version 4.

[/quote]





Just as a FYI: I don't buy apps from MAS, and I don't plan to. I find Apple's iron-fist control to be a disturbing trend that I do not wish to support. When you go MAS only, you will losing any future revenue from me and I'll stop recommending the product to friends and in my workplace.



-Chris

Ben

[quote name='ChrisKnight' timestamp='1317610706' post='52075']





Just as a FYI: I don't buy apps from MAS, and I don't plan to. I find Apple's iron-fist control to be a disturbing trend that I do not wish to support. When you go MAS only, you will losing any future revenue from me and I'll stop recommending the product to friends and in my workplace.



-Chris

[/quote]



Thank you for your input Chris. I'm sorry to hear that. We've decided to move to the MAS exclusively for a number of reasons, but the primary one is so that our developers can focus their efforts on developing 1Password instead of dealing with things like merchant accounts, marketing, maintaing servers, etc. We hope that this will ultimately lead to a better product overall.

jaspreets

[quote name='Nik' timestamp='1317440505' post='51946']



Currently, the plan is to go MAS-only for version 4.

[/quote]





And that's my problem... I think this is the first time I've heard that 1password is going MAS only... if you guys had mentioned this earlier or more clearly, I wouldn't feel "betrayed" or "duped."



Considering I read your blog and newsletters as well as test every beta that comes out, I shouldn't have to find out that 1password is going MAS only from a forum thread.



Had this been clearly stated, I would have purchased 3.9 from the MAS and just not installed it, with a wait and see approach to 4.0, but at least I'd have the option before having to shill out $50 without any opportunity for upgrade pricing or discount pricing.



It's not that you're going MAS only that bothers me... many other developers have gone this route and I understand the reasons why (though I may not agree with them, long term, I think this will lead to more limited choices... also, how do you plan on beta-testing MAS only apps?)... I'm just disappointed with the lack of communication from AgileBits in this regard.





-Jaspreet

brenty

Hey there, Jaspreet!



We have discussed this a lot on the forums since the release in the Mac App Store, so I am a bit surprised that this is the first you have heard of it. We haven't made a huge deal out of this because currently 1Password is [i]not[/i] MAS-only, and we could certainly decide not to go that route; but right now that is the plan for the yet-to-be-released 1Password version 4.0. Also, we may very well offer another promotion in the future. Only time will tell.



While I can appreciate your disappointment, please also understand that none of this is written in stone. We call ourselves [i]Agile[/i]Bits for a reason. We try to be adaptable and move quickly, so it just isn't possible for us to communicate future plans and roadmaps and such...even days in advance at time, because we need to be free to meet change head on.



You'll notice that we haven't made any announcements or talked too much about a certain nascent cloud service: It is not even released yet, and it is important to us to evaluate our options as things develop and see what may be best for both us and our customers.



We want to do the same for 1Password Mac, and if the MAS frees us from some accounting and administrative tasks to make 1Password even better, then that's where we want to be. If not, then we may have to reconsider. Right now, though, things are going well.



Frankly, I am not clear what features you think you are missing in 3.8. 3.9 users are actually waiting for Chromium and WebKit support right now. I suspect that whatever you think you are missing out on may be either a misunderstanding, or it is already in the works. We are not ready to leave 3.8 customers out in the cold!



I guess I just don't think it is fair to say that you were 'duped'. We never said that 1Password would only ever be sold directly from our website, and the version you paid for still works just as it did pre-MAS (in fact, a bit better after a few updates). The only reason there are two separate versions (and version numbers) is because we had to make a few changes to conform to MAS rules. If we could have gotten 1Password approved without changing it at all I think we may have done just that. <img src='http://forum.agilebits.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

ChrisKnight

[quote name='bwoodruff' timestamp='1317654040' post='52088']



Thank you for your input Chris. I'm sorry to hear that. We've decided to move to the MAS exclusively for a number of reasons, but the primary one is so that our developers can focus their efforts on developing 1Password instead of dealing with things like merchant accounts, marketing, maintaing servers, etc. We hope that this will ultimately lead to a better product overall.

[/quote]



I work in TechOps for a fairly decently sized social gaming company. As part of the security team, one of the things that I will be addressing is user system security, and one of the products I was going to propose was 1Password. Site licenses are not available via MAS, and managing individual expense reports for every software purchase is not viable either. I don't know if you have any large corporate customers, but going MAS will pretty much mean you won't be getting any future ones.



If you shift all of the burden somewhere else, you also lose control. I hope you consider that as well, when making plans for the future.



-Chris

shinratdr

[quote name='ChrisKnight' timestamp='1317688889' post='52122']

If you shift all of the burden somewhere else, you also lose control. I hope you consider that as well, when making plans for the future.

[/quote]



Well put. It's nice to see that customers are still making their frustration known, Agile's flippant attitude towards the backlash has been unbearable and the fact that customers are still coming to complain when we are coming up on a month in the MAS now will hopefully cause them to re-think this decision.



Probably not though.

NovaScotian

One of the problems with their commitments to the MAS and Lion only is the assumption that their users will all rush to upgrade to Lion. I haven't, and probably won't any time soon, so I'll never get to use 1P_4 or any of its descendants. Pity, because like most of the complaints include the assertion that the poster doesn't want to live without 1P but may have to.

thightower

Hey NovaScotian <img src='http://forum.agilebits.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/emoticon-0128-hi.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='(hi)' />



Long time no see, I am very grateful to have you presence again in the forums.

hmurchison

[quote name='NovaScotian' timestamp='1317776447' post='52197']

One of the problems with their commitments to the MAS and Lion only is the assumption that their users will all rush to upgrade to Lion. I haven't, and probably won't any time soon, so I'll never get to use 1P_4 or any of its descendants. Pity, because like most of the complaints include the assertion that the poster doesn't want to live without 1P but may have to.

[/quote]



Tim Cook at the keynote yesterday said that Lion is already running on 10% of Macs and has sold 6 million copies. That's faster than "any" new version of Mac OS ever. Agile has to move towards where the user base is going and clearly that's with Lion and iOS 5 and forward.



Though there's nothing to worry about for the near future as the 3.8.x branch will continue to be updated and polished. But it's clear that Lion is the present and near term future and it offers many benefits including the Mac App Store.

ethan KR

[quote name='hmurchison' timestamp='1317845133' post='52235']



Tim Cook at the keynote yesterday said that Lion is already running on 10% of Macs and has sold 6 million copies. That's faster than "any" new version of Mac OS ever. Agile has to move towards where the user base is going and clearly that's with Lion and iOS 5 and forward.



Though there's nothing to worry about for the near future as the 3.8.x branch will continue to be updated and polished. But it's clear that Lion is the present and near term future and it offers many benefits including the Mac App Store.

[/quote]

How about the 90% at present?

jfnixon

I agree with the general sense that moving to the MAS leaves a bit of a bad taste. I wasn't able to take advantage of upgrade pricing because I didn't immediately jump to Lion. I won't immediately jump to 1PW 4.0, either, if I decide to continue as a customer. AgileBits moved to the MAS for business reasons, and I can understand that. Surely y'all can understand how existing customers might feel when we are told our upgrade pricing is full price, and the family pricing has apparently gone away as well for MAS re-purchasers. I just wonder how much business sense it makes to commit your company to a distribution channel that, while it has some advantages, makes it impossible to treat existing customers as, well, existing customers.

hmurchison

[quote name='jfnixon' timestamp='1317874836' post='52271']

I agree with the general sense that moving to the MAS leaves a bit of a bad taste. I wasn't able to take advantage of upgrade pricing because I didn't immediately jump to Lion. I won't immediately jump to 1PW 4.0, either, if I decide to continue as a customer. AgileBits moved to the MAS for business reasons, and I can understand that. Surely y'all can understand how existing customers might feel when we are told our upgrade pricing is full price, and the family pricing has apparently gone away as well for MAS re-purchasers. I just wonder how much business sense it makes to commit your company to a distribution channel that, while it has some advantages, makes it impossible to treat existing customers as, well, existing customers.

[/quote]





You didn't have to jump to Lion to take advantage of the special. With the Mac App Store when you purchase apps that app is assigned to your Apple ID. It will download but you do not have to install the app. You can delete the app and it'll still remain in your purchased history ready for download at a future date.



There's little use for Family Packs as well. One purchase of 1Password on the MAS means it can be installed on any Mac that you feel comfortable having your Apple ID assigned to. This makes the $49 price of 1Password more palatable because in practice it can function just like a Family Pack.



As for business sense...no company got rich by making its products harder to use for the general populace. Agile is still able to deliver support via these forums and within the application regardless of where the end user purchased the app (web store or MAS)



The Mac App Store does not limit developers from doing certain tasks out of malevolence. If a feature must be cut because of Sandboxing it's because that feature represents a potential security risk. Security of passwords and personal information is the raison d'être of 1Password. I store credit card and Social Security and more in this app. I would literally be ruined if it was comprised and this information found it's way into nefarious hands. A nod towards more security is a good one in my book. YMMV



My hope is that the time that Agile spends maintaining their own store can be put towards architecting 1Password so that it is more extensible and "agile" in supporting the moving target that is the modern day Web Browser and computer Operating System.

hmurchison

[quote name='ChrisKnight' timestamp='1317688889' post='52122'] I work in TechOps for a fairly decently sized social gaming company. As part of the security team, one of the things that I will be addressing is user system security, and one of the products I was going to propose was 1Password. Site licenses are not available via MAS, and managing individual expense reports for every software purchase is not viable either. I don't know if you have any large corporate customers, but going MAS will pretty much mean you won't be getting any future ones. If you shift all of the burden somewhere else, you also lose control. I hope you consider that as well, when making plans for the future. -Chris[/quote]



Apple already has their Volume Purchasing Program working with the Mac App Store. It's only a matter of time before 3rd party vendor support is fleshed out.



http://www.apple.com/mac/volume-licensing/

benfdc

[quote name='hmurchison' timestamp='1317916914' post='52345']

You didn't have to jump to Lion to take advantage of the special. With the Mac App Store when you purchase apps that app is assigned to your Apple ID. It will download but you do not have to install the app. You can delete the app and it'll still remain in your purchased history ready for download at a future date.

[/quote]

Not true. I was unable to purchase the app in Snow Leopard. I had to wait until I was with a friend who was running Lion. I logged on as a guest to purchase the program, and of course my friend had to authenticate with an admin password.



I paid $25 for 1P 3.9; if I recall correctly it was priced at $20 when I first tried to pick it up. Of course I still won't be able to USE until I upgrade to Lion …

brenty

I was going to bring up Apple's numbers for Lion adoption, but hmurchison beat me to the punch. Ethan made a very good observation regarding the 90% (or less now) of Mac users who are using older versions of OS X. The crux of the issue is that the userbase is moving to Lion not away from it. While it is 'only' 10% now, the fact that people have moved that quickly in just over two months is an indication of the pace of migration. While I am not at liberty to share details, our numbers also reflect this trend, but to a substantially greater degree. Lion may not be the present for all of us yet, but it is definitely the future -- and that is where we need to be looking.



All of you folks make excellent points, and we are listening to your feedback as we move forward. I really appreciate the thoughtfulness and civility (especially in a thread with such a title). I know we are all passionate about this, no matter what 'side' we are on, and I am glad we can have a dialogue. Thank you! <img src='http://forum.agilebits.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

ChrisKnight

[quote name='jfnixon' timestamp='1317874836' post='52271']

I agree with the general sense that moving to the MAS leaves a bit of a bad taste. [/quote]



I still have a bad taste in my mouth regarding Agile's early forray into iPhone Apps. I really didn't like buying 1Password for the iPhone, and then having to buy it _again_ as '1Password Pro'. Even if I hadn't taken a personal stand against buying from the MAS, I still wouldn't be jumping on this band wagon because of my past experiences with Agile. Great product, don't get me wrong; but poor decision making that has to be backtracked with the users paying the price.

farcaster

At first I was supportive of Agile when they made the move to the MAS. But then all of the same excuses started getting posted about "well, it's the way Apple does things" and "how hard we have to work with our servers" and "the time spent on maintaining customer accounts". I finally got pretty tired of hearing that, along with the statements "this will be our only delivery" and "well, we could change our minds".



Then with the price increase that will not accomodate upgrading existing customers, making the upgrade nothing more than a purchase of a new license. There are many other companies who have placed their product in the App Store, yet still maintain a web store on their site. If the way Agile is running the servers and maintaining their distribution and the customer database, then maybe that problem should have been addressed a long time ago, and the problems fixed. Whatever those problems are should NOT affect us as customers. That's strictly an internal problem for Agile. And nobody at Apple forced or coerced them into delivery via the App Store. That was Agile's choice.



In light of this I have started looking at other packages and found one that is totally acceptable for me, and I am running it in parallel with 1Password. Oh, it's free and also provides cross browser and cross platform bookmark syncing. If the day ever comes when an upgrade of the operating system breaks the 3.8 branch and it doesn't get fixed AND there isn't an acceptable upgrade path, then I will simply turn off 1Password and live with my other choice.



I surely hope that Agile reconsiders their stance and accepts and reconciles their internal issues instead of using them as an excuse for what they have done. Quite frankly, I don't really care to hear that you spend many hours keeping a server running. Fix it. I only care about the software that I purchased.



Thanks for listening. I've listened to you.

hmurchison

[quote name='farcaster' timestamp='1317953251' post='52386']



Then with the price increase that will not accomodate upgrading existing customers, making the upgrade nothing more than a purchase of a new license. There are many other companies who have placed their product in the App Store, yet still maintain a web store on their site. If the way Agile is running the servers and maintaining their distribution and the customer database, then maybe that problem should have been addressed a long time ago, and the problems fixed. Whatever those problems are should NOT affect us as customers. That's strictly an internal problem for Agile. And nobody at Apple forced or coerced them into delivery via the App Store. That was Agile's choice.

[/quote]



I was an existing customer and I was able to get 1Password 3.9 for $20. With a free upgrade to 4.0 that sufficed for my upgrade. Indeed there are other companies that sell on the MAS and directly but Agile is unique in that they support 4 or more browsers, 2 mobile phone operating systems and two desktop operating systems. That's casting a WIDE net and there are only 24 hours in a day. They can choose to maximise these hours by having employees work on making 1Password feature-rich and stable or they can devote time to handling licensing servers, marcomm and payment gateways to appease some that have an irrational hatred toward the Mac App Store or not getting 4 updates a day to the application. They aren't the only ones looking at the Mac App Store as a way of delegating tasks so they can focus on what they love...creating great software.



It's certainly becoming a trend - Mac App Exclusive apps



1Password 4.0 (planned)

Pixelmator

Apple iWork, Final Cut Pro X, Aperture

Ulysses

Growl 1.3



and much more. With Lion's fast uptake there's going to be a lot of eyeballs on the Mac App Store and those eyeballs will be growing in numbers. People want a safe and easy way to get applications and it doesn't get much easier than the Mac App Store.

farcaster

hmurchison - I've read too many of your posts here. You are quite clearly a supporter of Agile and what they do. Just about all of them lend the same language you have used here. Do me a favor - allow me to address my concerns to Agile - unless you work for them and can speak for them, don't address my posts here to them.

hmurchison

[quote name='farcaster' timestamp='1317967105' post='52396']

hmurchison - I've read too many of your posts here. You are quite clearly a supporter of Agile and what they do. Just about all of them lend the same language you have used here. Do me a favor - allow me to address my concerns to Agile - unless you work for them and can speak for them, don't address my posts here to them.

[/quote]



I do support Agile both financially and in spirit though other than being a fan I have no other "skin in the game" The only language I seek is one logic and temperance. I have made my opinion on Agile's communication or lack thereof known multiple. These message boards by default vessels for open communication. I suggest that, if you prefer responses from Agile in a more private manner, communicating with them via private messages would be far more fruitful that asking silence from another on a public fora. One does not have to be an Agile employee to provide insightful or helpful information even if it is contrary to your opinion or desire. Cheers, and whatever issue you face, hopefully a happy medium can be made.

Ben

[quote name='farcaster' timestamp='1317967105' post='52396']

hmurchison - I've read too many of your posts here. You are quite clearly a supporter of Agile and what they do. Just about all of them lend the same language you have used here. Do me a favor - allow me to address my concerns to Agile - unless you work for them and can speak for them, don't address my posts here to them.

[/quote]



This is a community forum. Everyone has the opportunity to voice their opinion so long as they abide by the rules.



If you want to cut out the community aspect we can answer technical and customer service inquiries directly when sent to our email address: support@agilebits.com

farcaster

[quote name='bwoodruff' timestamp='1318006083' post='52414']

This is a community forum. Everyone has the opportunity to voice their opinion so long as they abide by the rules.

[/quote]



Which would afford me the same right to reply to a reply to my post.

Ben

[quote name='farcaster' timestamp='1318008534' post='52417']



Which would afford me the same right to reply to a reply to my post.

[/quote]



I didn't say posting here was a right. <img src='http://forum.agilebits.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' /> These are community forums. If we can't act like a community, then they don't have to exist.



Constructive feedback is welcome. Telling other customers off is not.



In either case. I read your opening post and we appreciate the feedback. I'm sure we will make an effort to make the transition to version 4 as fair as possible for existing users.