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1Password ONLY from App Store?
Comments
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[quote name='TheJesusFish' timestamp='1315527030' post='45905']
I haven't had a problem with the browser extension since 3.6, you have had nothing but problems. WHICH ONE IS RIGHT?!
[/quote]
Perhaps both of you. I still have problems with the Safari extension and it's version 3.8.2. I guess that makes me more right than you there.Flag 0 -
[quote name='macdrifter' timestamp='1315602907' post='46801']
I'm also failing to see what feedback you consider valuable. I think there are plenty of comments with valuable feedback. Not all, certainly. There's a lot though. Even yours. Even Ihotka's. Maybe even midiw. That's up to AgileBits now isn't it?
[/quote]
We appreciate that everyone took the time to sign up and provide us with valuable feedback. Reality is that we simply cannot make everybody happy, but we certainly aren't brushing anyone off or telling anyone to go pound salt. We're listening, and will take all of the feedback into consideration as we move forward.Flag 0 -
Well perception does trump all doesn't it? I find the truth to be condescending in many circumstances regardless of perception.
"So whose important here?"
Agile would have to answer that. They presumably have sales data and other information that sheds light on what type of person is a 1Password owner.
In the end I think that Apple and others have proven that when powerful features and simplicity intersect people will pay a premium. I think Agile is pretty close
to that sweet spot.Flag 0 -
As a long time customer [Fall, 2006], and one who's gotten my folks to use 1passwd even earlier than myself [thanks to the founders' postings on an online sweeps forum where PC switchers were trying to find something to use on a Mac since roboform didn't exist], I've been following and using and recommending 1passwd to everyone [yes, i still use the old name; i'm a unix guy and the 'or' are just two letters i can't type when typing the word "passwd" - see? <img src='http://forum.agilebits.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' /> ].
I've had my mother complain to me multiple times about 1Passwd in recent months because of the bad changes to the extensions - mainly she's a firefox user but also uses Safari. The Firefox extension lost the toolbar [used all the time by her] and now doesn't fill in fields that it used to and is generally unstable; the Safari extension exhibits the same behavior. In fact now I have to keep the app open most of the times and copy/paste from it into the browser since the extensions don't function well.
I say this because for most people, they may never run the app - for them, the browser extensions ARE the app. The extensions have been degraded to the point where not much is filled in properly [esp. when the same forms used to fill in fine!].
I think 1Passwd and Agile grew too fast - offering the program in every bundle that exists [i bought the app for myself and my folks before a bundle, but i probably own about 15 licenses due to all the bundles it came with!]. This means there's a huge install base and Agile didn't get a ton of money per user for all those bundles. This ends up meaning a larger need for support is necessary. More need for staff to handle license requests, more need to make changes/enhancements on the license server, etc. A lot of this means less time focusing on the core product. From my eyes, as a user of 1passwd, this, in combination with changes to FF and Safari, has made the product less functional.
When I started testing out Google Chrome and installed the 1passwd extension and saw how poorly it performed, I gave up on Chrome. Without 1passwd, a browser is a lot less useful to me. Unfortunately, that same style/quality extension migrated its way to Safari and Firefox. As a Mac and iOS developer, I know the reasons for the changes, but I feel they haven't been implemented very well and the extensions feel very much like a 1.0 or a pre-1.0 product.
What does this have to do with App Store distribution? Well, as it's been written before, the extensions are separate and will be updated outside the App Store [which seems to be a violation of the TOS, so it is surprising that 1passwd got approved so quickly]. But, as a fan and owner of the 1passwd pro iOS apps, and the statement that a future update will only work with 1passwd v4, I wonder how my Snow Leopard and Leopard [PPC] machines will handle this. Going to Lion only on a utility that is owned by so many people who aren't techies and who may not be able to upgrade to Lion seems like a big mistake.
As I recently posted on MacSB, yes, XCode changes for Lion on awesome. But UX for Lion for Normals is confusing and has turned many people off. Also for businesses, installing Lion can be a pain if they want to make themselves 100% legal. And installing 3rd party apps is very, very tough if they are MAS only. A poster in this thread put it very well when he described his issues with his company and the MAS.
I obviously vote for v4 to be kept available for non-MAS users. I think the MAS is a good distribution source, but not the only source. If you put all your eggs in one basket and suddenly that basket fails, you've got a problem. One such an app that went MAS only was kicked out of the MAS upon their 3rd update [the program is called Kickoff]. They were kicked off [heh] because their app, while free, required a subscription to use the app past a trial period.
What would happen if in a few months, Apple found that there was a problem with 1passwd that you couldn't fix to stay compliant? Now you're out of the MAS and you have to quickly re-setup your website to offer a non-MAS version and go through the process of license keys, etc. If you maintain that system, then a problem with the MAS might not be as disruptive. With the fact that your program is a very high profile program, you have an advantage that the MAS doesn't add a ton of extra marketing for you. Yes, it will be popular on the store for a while because of this sale, but you've sold 1000s of copies of your app via bundles and non-bundles for the last 5 years - you've got a large fan base who tells others about you via word of mouth. Use the MAS for a sales channel, but don't use it for the only sales channel. Both Panic and Omnigroup, who make fine apps as well, are doing that. Your company is big enough and I am sure has the sales numbers to back it up, to maintain an MAS and non-MAS version.
While I can partly understand your Lion only reasons, I highly disagree with it, since the app is used by so many who aren't techies and who may still be on Leopard! [many of my mac friends run 10.5 because they didn't see many reasons to update to 10.6- now they are stuck on 10.5 because Apple offers no way to upgrade to 10.7! the USB Lion requires 10.6 just like the MAS version of Lion, but Apple no longer sells 10.6]. If your program was geared more towards techies, moving to Lion is a no brainer, but I think with just a general purpose app as yours, moving to Lion isn't such a good option. Since your mobile versions will require 4.0 to sync, this means someone who is on 10.5 and uses an iPhone [since Apple supports 10.5 and iPhones], will now not be able to sync their data between iOS and Mac devices and that kinda sucks. What if one day the iOS user accidentally hits the "update all" button on their iphone? Now they have a version of 1passwd that can't sync because their desktop version can't be upgraded to version 4.0?
Those are my long-winded concerns. Exec summary: Use MAS as one means of distribution, not the only means. Make 4.0 not Lion only [but i think it's too late for you to change that now; so at least let the new iOS versions sync via dropbox with 3.x versions]. Improve the extensions, since that's the "app" to most people.
Thank you for listening.
/vjl/Flag 0 -
I'm mixed about this. For one thing all of the applications I have from MAS are generally simple ones like on my iDevices. Second are the restrictions that being in MAS imposes like sandboxing, etc. Case in point is BBEdit 10 which has a slightly "dumbed down" MAS version because Apple doesn't like that you can access files and update them via SSH. I can see the advantage to AgileBits but I don't see the advantage of MAS to me. And since we're talking about an application I use it is all about me if I'm to pay for an upgrade (which I fully expected to do up until the whole MAS thing).
Now if i add to this the problems and loss of functionality I've had with the bloody Safari extension (and still with have though it has improved) and the loss of functionality in Camino, 1Password is losing features and functionality I use (or used to use) and at a rapid clip. And about the time I finally come down off the ceiling and grudgingly accept the change because I'm too lazy to migrate everything back the way it was before I bought 1Password there's another change that has me evaluating it all over again.
While there is a high noise-to-signal ratio with the garment renderers here, if I were a betting man and I am I'd say that the prevailing view from Agile is: 1) it'll die down eventually; 2) suck it up. It must suck to have a bunch of customers telling you how to run your business but I can tell you it sucks worse when you're the customer and an application you've thought highly love keeps losing ground.
And no I don't have to upgrade off of 3.8.5 and at this point won't. By the time iOS 5.0 comes out and requires 1P 4.0 (if it does) Agile may have turned it all around and given us some options besides MAS and Apple's utopian view of how software should work on my Mac or I'll have to have an escape plan. Looks like we should both get to thinking.Flag 0 -
[quote name='hmurchison' timestamp='1315601854' post='46779']
Case in point here. This posting doesn't provide Agile much information to glean anything off of other than a rather illogical hatred for the Mac App Store. Apple has already
proven that consumers are ok with app stores (iOS app store) so long as their choices are plentiful.
Apple's business isn't based on targeted advertising or data mining so why exactly would they care what applications i'm downloading from the App Stores and if they are curators then haven't they basically blessed every application they approved?
A litany of irrational responses mixed with blatant falsifications, FUD and vitriol will not sway a company. Rational and reasoned argumentation from a holistic view will but sadly that's in short supply on most web forums.
cheers
[/quote]
Well, I just don't see or understand at this point any valid reason to sell this excellent application ONLY at the APP STORE.Flag 0 -
[quote name='bwoodruff' timestamp='1315603063' post='46806']
Hey chrisrosa,
There really isn't much different about 3.9 other than we've gotten it ready for the MAS. The thing about purchasing 1Password there is that it will include a free upgrade to version 4, which normally would have been a paid upgrade. So, if you want to, you can think about it as if you are getting 3.9 for free and 4.0 for 60% off.
If you have a minute I'd be very interested in hearing what you know about Apple's business options, as we aren't really aware of a way to help business customers transition to the MAS at the moment.
[/quote]
Will you elaborate on what is different in 3.9? I've read snippets on various web sites about changes to backup and Dropbox usage but they are short on details. I am a huge Dropbox user and so any change there trips my "whoa!" alarm. And understand y'all lost cred with me after dropping Camino support and then the whole Safari extension business. So a little transparency here as to what we are losing on MAS might go a long way.
Oh, and I'll echo one earlier poster about installing applications in non-standard directories. Time was that the most secure place to install was in ~/Applications since applications installed there did not automatically inherit admin privileges. With MAS I can't do that and still get upgrades/patches. Corner case? Probably but it's still about how my workflow and usage patterns are affected.Flag 0 -
[quote name='lhotka' timestamp='1315599220' post='46746']
Moot point for me, I can't (by policy) and wouldn't (by philosophy) ever use a cloud service to sync passwords. Witness what happened recently with a competitor that exposed everyone's data.
[/quote]
If it's sufficiently encrypted and you hold the keys it's safe "in the cloud". Of course the recent incident you cite is also on a service who maintains the keys meaning that they have access to your data, or at least the stuff that you don't encrypt yourself. Not sure how Apple is going to approach this with iCloud if they will at all.Flag 0 -
[quote name='JayBe' timestamp='1315604733' post='46823']
If it's sufficiently encrypted and you hold the keys it's safe "in the cloud". Of course the recent incident you cite is also on a service who maintains the keys meaning that they have access to your data, or at least the stuff that you don't encrypt yourself. Not sure how Apple is going to approach this with iCloud if they will at all.
[/quote]
Yep, this is exactly the issue. This was the problem with Dropbox (did not affect 1Password) and also the problem with our competitor that was mentioned above. THEY (the company) held the keys. With 1Password, YOU hold your own keys (your Master Password).
This is ultimately a much more secure setup, so long as you don't lose your keys. <img src='http://forum.agilebits.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />
[quote name='JayBe' timestamp='1315604316' post='46821']
Will you elaborate on what is different in 3.9? I've read snippets on various web sites about changes to backup and Dropbox usage but they are short on details. I am a huge Dropbox user and so any change there trips my "whoa!" alarm. And understand y'all lost cred with me after dropping Camino support and then the whole Safari extension business. So a little transparency here as to what we are losing on MAS might go a long way.
Oh, and I'll echo one earlier poster about installing applications in non-standard directories. Time was that the most secure place to install was in ~/Applications since applications installed there did not automatically inherit admin privileges. With MAS I can't do that and still get upgrades/patches. Corner case? Probably but it's still about how my workflow and usage patterns are affected.
[/quote]
Changes are outlined in the FAQ: [url="http://forum.agilebits.com/index.php?/topic/8068-official-answers-1password-and-the-mac-app-store/"]OFFICIAL ANSWERS: 1Password and the Mac App Store[/url]
[quote name='midiw' timestamp='1315604143' post='46819']
Well, I just don't see or understand at this point any valid reason to sell this excellent application ONLY at the APP STORE.
[/quote]
One very valid reason is that we spend far too much time dealing with licensing issues, managing servers, and everything else that the MAS does for us that isn't developing awesome software. The less of that stuff we do, the more awesome software we can create.
[quote]
Those are my long-winded concerns. Exec summary: Use MAS as one means of distribution, not the only means. Make 4.0 not Lion only [but i think it's too late for you to change that now; so at least let the new iOS versions sync via dropbox with 3.x versions]. Improve the extensions, since that's the "app" to most people.
[/quote]
Our focus is definitely still on improving the user experience with Firefox 6 and Safari 5.1 (and ultimately Chrome as well, by extension). We appreciate your input.Flag 0 -
Dear AgileBits staff,
you said you're reading every feedback and considering it while moving forward. So I hope you'll read this. I'd be glad if the following suggestions were included in upcoming business decisions. You really don't have to comment but some notice of receipt would be nice.
I bought 1PW over a year ago so that I may make my life easier and 1PW did an excellent job in doing so. Kudos for creating a great piece of software and please keep up the good work! Yesterday, I registered on the forums - my main reason was to express my frustration over the recent v3.9 update and the sudden move to the MAS. I could go on debating over the milk I see spilt, but well, you know, I'd rather move on with my life. So please consider this my leaving remarks.
By going Lion only and MAS only you guys made a business decision you had every right to. But obviously there's a number of customers who don't consider this your wisest move - for various reasons [e.g. 1. Excluding all <10.7 users from future updates? Seriously? 2. Excluding all existing customers except very recent buyers from free v3.x updates? WTF?]. And then there's the execution of a debatable idea: Was the timing right (Pre-v4? Pre-iCloud? Pre-10.7.1)? No statement on how long the sale will last? No heads up for existing customers, no announcement? (Yeah, the approval happened sooner then expected, but you were aware of your submission, right?)...
But well, the deed is done. Where to go from here?
If I were you, I would:
- Make a commitment to all existing Non-MAS customers and announce that the current discount will be offered again upon release of -- MAS only and Lion only, if you will -- 1PW v4.0. Due to the possibility of in-app notifications there's no need for mass e-mailing.
- Until the release of v4.0, provide functionally equivalent updates / bug fixes for the MAS version and the Non-MAS version -- which should not be Lion only. Also, maintain equal version numbers.
This way, nobody would need to feel suddenly excluded from the greater part of support (critical updates for v3.x, that is) and nobody would need to feel pressured into buying a pig in a poke (going by the name of "1PW v4.0").
Thank you for your consideration!Flag 0 -
[quote name='midiw' timestamp='1315604143' post='46819']
Well, I just don't see or understand at this point any valid reason to sell this excellent application ONLY at the APP STORE.
[/quote]
Understandable and my apologies for belittling your comment. I admit to be a bit surprised about how quickly some companies have
moved to MAS only. Perhaps I was naive to think that payment processing services like Kagi and others had nothing but stellar
reviews from software vendors but it appears that the ability to be in a highly trafficked store like MAS is compelling enough to make that
decision.
I would like to see some changes in the Mac App Store. I'd love to see developers given the right to move existing clients over to MAS at
no fee.
I'd like to see Apple provide developers with demographic data about who is buying their apps and from where.
I'd like to see bundle deals available where Agile could team with Smile and other companies and deliver bundled apps that can be purchased
just like today's Mac bundles.
Last but not least MAS store for Business with the ability to distribute and revoke licenses.
dare to dream right <img src='http://forum.agilebits.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/skype_smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':-)' />Flag 0 -
[quote name='midiw' timestamp='1315604143' post='46819']
Well, I just don't see or understand at this point any valid reason to sell this excellent application ONLY at the APP STORE.
[/quote]
Software hosting is not free and it comes with it's own headaches. While developers could deal with these aspects and possibly make more money, I understand the desire to put this on someone else and focus just on making great software. Whether or not Apple's 30% cut is worth it? That is a business decision that I am not privy to answer since I don't own a software company.Flag 0 -
ashcroft3000,
Read it. Understood it. Read it again.
I really hope we can change your mind about 1Password, but if not, I'm sorry to see you go.
I'm not in a position to make any commitments regarding pricing but I can say that historically, we've been very generous with software upgrades. You don't have to take my word for it, ask any of our users who purchased v2 MONTHS before v3 came out and were upgraded automatically to v3 at no extra charge. Or ask any of our users who purchased v3 from our store within the last month and are now being given a full refund so that they can purchase the MAS version, essentially without any expense (free v4).
I don't believe we've said anywhere that we are done with updating the 3.8.x line.
Equal version numbers is one point I am going to disagree on. Version numbers are used to help track down bugs, etc. If we can't tell by the version number if you are using the MAS purchased version or the Agile purchased version, that makes our jobs that much more difficult.
Thanks
BenFlag 0 -
Thanks for your reply, Ben! I understand you're not in a position to make commitments on future pricing so I'd kindly ask you to forward my proposals to those in charge.
Take care!Flag 0 -
[quote name='ashcroft3000' timestamp='1315614437' post='46881']
I'd kindly ask you to forward my proposals to those in charge.
[/quote]
No worries. Though they sometimes don't have time to respond here themselves, they do actually keep up with what goes on. <img src='http://forum.agilebits.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />Flag 0 -
Boy lots of reading and I decided to just skip ahead and write my feedback, hopefully I didn't miss anything that would answer my concerns <img src='http://forum.agilebits.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />
Im also not a fan of the MAS. I have just been getting free apps there since I don't really care about them, but find some of them fun. I do wonder what functionality is lost in the MAS version verses the downloadable one that I am currently using? Is there anywhere that I can see those differences? I really like the ability to take my file and throw it onto a USB drive and then drag it into a browser window to access my passwords.. is that still available? There are a couple different pieces of software that I have that because I use the downloadable version I have a whole lot more functionality compared to the MAS version. I really appreciate those developers that provide a downloadable non-crippleware version. It also allows them so much more flexibility in what they want to do with their product in the future.
I did hear it mentioned previously the scenario of where those MAS users needing to wait for a critical update and the downloadable users just downloaded the new version and kept on going. I've had that happen with a couple pieces of the software that I use and I am very thankful that I had the downloadable version and didn't have to wait as long as the MAS users to get the update. Some serious support time was put into those MAS users that were really upset.
On the upgrading servers, etc to keep up with users.. it does seem like all those people moving to the MAS will free up a lot of those resources? This also increases your market share to those people that use the MAS and those that do not, instead of abandoning those that do not?
The response by the founder was an excellent response btw! I like that he is open to changing his mind in the decision to being MAS only. That it really is an experiment to see what comes of it. I personally have no doubts that there will be a downloadable version in the future. There are just too many of us that really dislike the MAS and the control that Apple has over it. Developers tend to want to be able to dictate the direction their software moves and not have it dictated to them. I don't see why the 1Pass developers are any different.
Anyways, I for one, will not be upgrading to 3.9 or 4 anytime soon. Ill hold out as long as possible until that downloadable version is made available! <img src='http://forum.agilebits.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' /> Thanks for such an awesome app, I really do think there is nothing that touches it on the market currently!Flag 0 -
[quote name='hmurchison' timestamp='1315519445' post='45735']
So what you're saying here is that YOUR needs for fast updates trump potentially more viable options (Agile) for your recommendations? What if they don't care about having 10 updates a week? What if they just want stable software? We all know here Agile software is far more user friendly than KeePass but in the end it's your recommendation that is either going to carry weight or not.
[/quote]
Except that "stable" is a shifting target. Always. When Mozilla ships a new Firefox, it breaks extensions. With the current non-MAS model, AgileBits is able to live up to their name and have, usually within an hour or two, an up date to 1P that gets it working with the new FF. Or Safari. Or Chrome.
With the MAS only model, as soon as Mozilla/Apple/Google ship that new browser and breaks 1P support, we have have to choose between sticking with the old browser, having a broken extension for a week or more while Apple gets around to approving an update to 1P. The Agile guys can't just push out a new update the second it's ready, it has to be submitted to Apple, approved, and then finally it can be distributed via the MAS. No in-app updates. Until Apple changes this policy, I strongly feel that going MAS only is a bad idea, especially for software like 1P where conditions are ever changing and need to be adapted to.
I know the Agile guys are saying the extensions are shipping separate from the main 1P application, which is great in theory. But these past few weeks have shown that the extensions are very much dependent on what version of the application is installed. I wasn't getting the new Safari extension updates until I switched back onto the beta channel and started receiving updates daily, sometimes a few times a day, to the main application. Then FF6 dropped and there was another flurry of 1P updates to address it. That simply cannot happen, by design, by going MAS only.
1P is itself already very stable. That's never been a concern. It's software that 1P interacts with that is in a constant state of flux and going MAS only robs AgileBits of the flexibility to adapt to those ever changing applications.
[quote name='TheJesusFish']
Installation (and reinstallation) on multiple machines is painless (and now free.)[/quote]
Painless it may now be, but it's always been free on multiple machines. Their license (at least since I started using with 1P2) has been per platform, not per machine. If you have one, or one thousand Macs, you just need one 1P license. A new license is needed for Windows machines, and again whether you have one or a thousand, it's just one license.
This very generous license scheme has been another reason I've strongly advocated 1P to family and friends. No one likes having to buy a new copy of software just because they picked up a second computer to use on occasion (desktop + laptop, as an example), and there are far too few companies that care. It's all about getting those license fees. AWS, now AgileBits has been a shining beacon of customer focused business, and wanting to have a MAS version is honestly a natural extension of that. But our problem isn't that there's a MAS version, it's that there's no longer going to be a non-MAS version.
For my less techie friends and family (basically all of them), I'll gladly advocate for 1P4 on the MAS (for the few that are using Macs, that is), because it's true that for the average user the MAS is a far simplified way for them to acquire and install software. But for someone like me who prefers to keep software as up to date as possible, the MAS is a step backward. Until Apple loosens the reins and doesn't have to approve every minor point update from an application, I don't see why offering both a MAS and a non-MAS version of an application seems to be such a big deal.
[quote name='poof']
The MAS will not get in the way of beta and trial versions (another big misconception). Developers can take use of this. If you want faster updates you can opt for a certain beta version.[/quote]
Yeah... except in this case (and several other developers moving to supplying MAS versions of their software) there is no non-MAS version, so there's no option to get on the beta channel. You either only get "stable" updates via the MAS, and have to wait for Apple's approval of each one, or you don't get 1Password (or stick with an old version, of course. Too bad for new customers coming in after they're no longer selling 3.x from their web store, though.)
If they want to offer a non-MAS version that's beta channel only, then by all means, bring it on! I'll gladly pay for my upgrade. But when they say it's MAS only, that means there is no beta version to opt in to, subsequently that also means there's no trial version to speak of going forward, either. So yes there are circumstances were the MAS does absolutely get in the way of trial/beta versions.
Agile says nothing is set in stone, and I truly hope that is the case and they will offer a non-MAS version (sooner rather than later, preferably).
[quote name='bwoodruff']
We don't know if we don't try it, and we had to do something.[/quote]
And as I and others have been saying, there is nothing in the MAS agreement that restricts you from offering a non-MAS version in parallel. You could easily make 3.9 non-MAS (and still require Lion), and 4.0 for that matter. There's nothing stopping you from doing that, but you.
Most especially since you're still selling the Windows version via the web store, all that infrastructure is still in place. The arguments for a MAS only version removing the need to maintain payment processors and server infrastructure is specious at best. Windows may very well be moving to an app store model with Windows 8. But it's not there now, and Windows 8 isn't out now, and until it is and you move to a WAS only model for the Windows version, you still have to maintain all that infrastructure. Thus there is no compelling reason, as of this moment, to move 1P3.9+ to MAS only.Flag 0 -
[quote name='hmurchison' timestamp='1315600217' post='46757']
Serial numbers don't make this process inherently more difficult or easier.
[/quote]
Sure they do - no need to do anything but reinstall the software on your own system. Having to authenticate with a particular user ID, and having software tied to that is far different than a portable serial number not tied to a particular person's account.Flag 0 -
[quote name='JayBe' timestamp='1315604733' post='46823']
If it's sufficiently encrypted and you hold the keys it's safe "in the cloud". Of course the recent incident you cite is also on a service who maintains the keys meaning that they have access to your data, or at least the stuff that you don't encrypt yourself. Not sure how Apple is going to approach this with iCloud if they will at all.
[/quote]
iCloud will be disabled by policy by my employer (and myself on personal machines) - too many avenues for accidents. We do the same thing with resume (oops, sorry, that was pricing for a different customer that just popped up on powerpoint).
As for security, if it's encrypted in the cloud, how can it be sync'd from the cloud? Are we transmitting decryption keys to the remote server, or downloading the entire encrypted file from that server to the client (which could be a *lot* of data) and syncing locally? It's a sticky widget.Flag 0 -
[quote name='jay_gunn' timestamp='1315617198' post='46911']
Painless it may now be, but it's always been free on multiple machines.
[/quote]
Installation and reinstallation of software from the MAS has been anything but painless and easy. Apple even suggested I purchase a new license because they couldn't get the darn thing to reinstall after a hardware migration.Flag 0 -
[quote name='jay_gunn' timestamp='1315617198' post='46911']
Most especially since you're still selling the Windows version via the web store, all that infrastructure is still in place. The arguments for a MAS only version removing the need to maintain payment processors and server infrastructure is specious at best. Windows may very well be moving to an app store model with Windows 8. But it's not there now, and Windows 8 isn't out now, and until it is and you move to a WAS only model for the Windows version, you still have to maintain all that infrastructure. Thus there is no compelling reason, as of this moment, to move 1P3.9+ to MAS only.
[/quote]
Oh, very very good point. Kudos!Flag 0 -
[quote name='Murlyn' timestamp='1315616210' post='46902']
The response by the founder was an excellent response btw! I like that he is open to changing his mind in the decision to being MAS only. That it really is an experiment to see what comes of it. I personally have no doubts that there will be a downloadable version in the future. There are just too many of us that really dislike the MAS and the control that Apple has over it. Developers tend to want to be able to dictate the direction their software moves and not have it dictated to them. I don't see why the 1Pass developers are any different.
[/quote]
What exactly is too many? I think the anti-MAS arguments have a familiar ring to them. They feel a lot like the arguments used by proponents of Open Source. The difference here is that all Closed Source companies aren't the enemy it's the benevolent dictator Apple that will someday turn in Mr. Hyde and destroy all Mac App Store software vendors.
Unlike the app store Agile and others "do" have the option to handle their own licensing, payment processing etc. Apple cannot simply do whatever it wants and expect companies with options to sit and take it.
I presume Agile will do what is best for the largest swath of their customer base.
[i]"Most people want security in the world, not liberty" [/i]
HL MenckenFlag 0 -
Add me to the tally of lost customers due to going both Lion and MAS only. No need to expound upon the arguments already made.Flag 0
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What I do not understand is why the data is stored in the app? There are other apps in the MAS that can access data stored outside of the app. iPhoto and Pages are just 2 examples. Why not make the user's home directory the default location for the keychain?
I do not trust dropbox enough, especially after their security issue a few months ago ([url="http://blog.dropbox.com/?p=821"]http://blog.dropbox.com/?p=821[/url])
-daveFlag 0 -
[quote name='shinratdr' timestamp='1315523328' post='45814']
I'm sorry I said that, but how do you expect me to feel when you are telling users "Sorry to see you go" (which is patronizing IMO) when that isn't their goal, they are simply trying to get an actual concerned response from you? Frankly, just responding isn't enough to demonstrate that you care. Responding with something along the lines of "We are hearing your concerns and currently re-evaluating making 1Password MAS only" would demonstrate that you care.
Saying "Sorry to see you go" just implies that you are in damage control mode and have no intentions of revisiting the current plan, which makes people feel angry and frustrated, because it seems like you don't care from that perspective. It's a rash response, but this was a rashly made decision that involved zero solicitation of user feedback (I follow 1Password very closely and if you had mentioned this anywhere I would have voiced my concerns earlier).
[/quote]
Actually, I've been around this forum long enough to know that when they say that, they really mean it. It might sound patronizing, but from what I've seen, they are only saying that when someone seriously says they are leaving.
I'm still bothered by a few things. My main concern now is that I am worried about bugs. But I suppose my using the beta versions has made me paranoid in that matter now that it's going to be in the MAS. How long with it take to get a fix?
And I also have to wonder if the Apple rules will preclude the system they are going to be using to update the browser plug-ins. Sure, that's a separate process now. But look what Apple did to eBook retailers. Not very good if you ask me, and certainly not in the best interest of Mac/iOS users. What if they say that kind of mechanism can't be used any more?
I like the sandboxing. Though I really hate that if you remove a MAS app from Launchpad, that the app and ALL its support files get thrown out immediately (not put in the trash). So if you don't use dropbox (which I can't at work) then you are out of luck. You've just lost all your passwords. Now I can always import them again, but that just seems like a dangerous precedent.
Apple was warning people at WWDC this year that Sandboxing was going to be a major issue. But I think other things are going to be even more significant.
But since they said they will consider going back to a non MAS version in the future if it's called for, and I've exported my data twice now in two different places, I guess i'll give it a try. A free v 4.0 sound like a pretty decent deal.
Sorry to ramble on. If I didn't love this software this much, I'd shrug my shoulders and give a try knowing there are alternatives out there. But I don't WANT to have to use the alternatives! 1Password has been so great for my online password management that I hate to give it up.
As long as they REALLY listen to their users, I'll be a supporter. When it appears they say they listen, but then make choices not in users' best interests, I'll go with the competition.Flag 0 -
[quote name='hmurchison' timestamp='1315617784' post='46920']What exactly is too many? I think the anti-MAS arguments have a familiar ring to them. They feel a lot like the arguments used by proponents of Open Source. The difference here is that all Closed Source companies aren't the enemy it's the benevolent dictator Apple that will someday turn in Mr. Hyde and destroy all Mac App Store software vendors.
Unlike the app store Agile and others "do" have the option to handle their own licensing, payment processing etc. Apple cannot simply do whatever it wants and expect companies with options to sit and take it.
I presume Agile will do what is best for the largest swath of their customer base.
[i]"Most people want security in the world, not liberty" [/i]
HL Mencken
[/quote]
To a business owner.. one is too many. You don't let the one dictate how things go, but you definitely think about the one when you make decisions. According to this single thread there are a lot more than one, and that's just those that feel passionate enough to actually post.
I just have to take a look at the iOS store to see what the MAS store is going to potentially become and if it was up to Apple, it would become, yes that is just speculation. You can read a crazy number of blog posts where developers are very unhappy, but it's their only way of getting their software out there.. so if they want it in the iOS store then they have to comply. It's completely up to Agile how they want to do it, they can go to MAS, it's their prerogative, just like it is ours to voice our displeasure and hope to persuade the developers to go an additional route. Your condescending tone definitely shows what you think of people that think differently than you, so I implore you to take into consideration that we are not all like you, we all have different likes and dislikes, please respect that and those people that voice those differences.
Since we like quotes, how about one that doesn't come from a movie <img src='http://forum.agilebits.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />
[i]They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.[/i] ~Benjamin Franklin
Im pretty sure the MAS wasn't what he was thinking about when he said that, or your Minority Report quote <img src='http://forum.agilebits.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' /> but I thought it was a funny retort <img src='http://forum.agilebits.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' /> and completely off topic <img src='http://forum.agilebits.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />Flag 0 -
A 15 page climb to the end of the thread... ahh I've missed AgileBits forums.
While I purchased the MAS version a few moments ago, I did that *only* because it a point upgrade and I'm insanely curious about 3.9. I'm adding my voice among those who [b]loathe[/b] the transition to MAS only distribution. This won't prevent me from using 1Password, nothing short of the Zombie Apocalypse will tear me away from 1P, but that doesn't mean I have to like the cookie jar used to get it to me. Heck, I open the Mac App Store *maybe* once a month, if that. I avoid it whenever possible.
I agree with jay_gunn - there is little that is agile about Apple App Stores in the context of software. I feel this can only limit you in certain aspects going forward. The MAS is an excellent way of distributing software, but I honestly don't see any need for AgileBits to use it exclusively. You have the infrastructure in place in the 1P code and your web ware to handle online ordering and licensing, and you have to keep it in place to support Knox and 1P for Windows anyways. You've already had to make concessions to get 1P in a state that will get it approved and it's the only product you make that'd likely be accepted by Apple for MAS distribution. (Granted, it's your main product, but you get the point)
F451 sums up my thoughts and position on the matter quite well, so I'll quote: (Emphasis mine)
[quote name='F451' timestamp='1315518830' post='45721']
Whooooa, let's all slowdown a wee bit here. First, having been around AgileBits through name changes, product and company, I can state without hesitation that the AB team is nothing but top-shelf, honest, and forthright—that's never changed.[b] Change is inevitable, but not all change is good.[/b] The future of software distribution—for the masses—will be app stores through all major corporations in this business. This leaves a prime market for private distribution that users will be more than willing to pay for (don't discount for one minute that tech corporations don't already know this and aren't planning for it). For those of us who have been around Apple far longer than most,[b] we know that Apple is no saint about matters, and just because Steve Jobs says something is obsolete doesn't mean it's so (Steve, is a marketer, first and foremost; more power to him for his success).[/b]
I still vehemently support AgileBits, and their software—they're still one of best out there!
Other 1P users need to understand that fellow 1P users might be under other constraints—beyond their control—and therefor frown at MAS only distribution.
[/quote]Flag 0 -
I was fearing when this day would come. 1Password is an absolutely essential app but as with many other apps going the app store exclusive is a [censored] decision for your long time users. I don't care about the money part (I'd easily pay 5 times again for this app with the amount of time it's saved me) but about functionality and security. We now get limited to where we put our databases, we can no longer switch between different databases on-the-fly (or at all?), updates will now literally take WEEKS to arrive so if a security issue is discovered we will be left vulnerable for WEEKS.
The Mac App store is a tempting environment for any developer because of the huge potential customer base you'll get through it but you didn't have to screw your existing customer base over to get that. Unfortunately you plan to so I doubt I'll make the switch. I can't have an app where I keep pretty much my whole online life be vulnerable for potentially WEEKS if a major issue is discovered. There are other decent developers in the Mac community that have made App Store versions of their app but at the same time they have KEPT their existing apps and haven't crippled them just to make a quick buck.
Also other apps such as text editors can save things pretty much anywhere - why limit the DB location?
We power users are what built your company, we were the first to buy your product and spread it's word to everyone we know because it was just that good. It's a shame you've now basically taken the stance of REMOVING useful features that we use on a daily basis in the next version and saying:
"Oh hey, thanks for making us what we are but we see more potential customers over there >>> so now we're going to move our app to a slow system with many limitations and remove features from our app just so we can make more money. Thanks for all the fish."
And don't give me the crap about making it easy to update and blah blah. The current way is just fine and is just as easy. I recommended this app to many completely computer illiterate people and they never had a problem with the way everything currently works.
To sum it up - you could have handled this the right way which would have kept both your existing and your new users happy but you choose not to. I will no longer support this product. Thanks for the great work over the years. Hopefully someone else will jump up to fill the void created by the soon cripped 1P app.Flag 0 -
[quote name='lhotka' timestamp='1315578006' post='46391']
Bandwidth isn't cheap everywhere, and that's the problem with Apple's attitude. A good portion of the people in this country don't live in New York or Silicon Valley and don't have access to inexpensive high-speed internet. I've family members who live less than 20 miles from Denver, and the only access available is dial-up or wireless (and one copy of Lion blows that up). Assumptions about the user community are the root of this issue. Apple assumes high-speed Internet. Blizzard assumes always-on Internet (kind of hard to do at 30,000 feet when I play most of my games). Agile assumes MAS-love/support/ability to use. Users are a diverse population, not a monolithic whole. [...]
Let's not pretend that MAS-only is a good thing. I haven't seen a single reason (from a consumer standpoint) why it is. (Note that I said MAS-only, not MAS-enabled).
[/quote]
To use your example, the Mac App Store uses delta updates, which will certainly save you time and money if bandwidth constraints are an issue. Just an example, but I think that it is far too soon to tell one way or the other if MAS is the antichrist or the second coming. None of us can see all ends. <img src='http://forum.agilebits.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />Flag 0 -
[quote name='lhotka' timestamp='1315577569' post='46385']
In order to update to the newer application, with the bug fixes and compatibility with the mobile app, we lost the ability to use FF3.6. You dropped support for older browsers.
[/quote]
Sorry for the misunderstanding. I was simply referring to the fact that if you were using Firefox 3 yesterday with 1Password 3.8, it still works just the same today.
[quote]
I don't think you guys understand - because some of those fixes may be security related, we have to upgrade the application. Unless you're going to fork the code, and provide bug fixes and support separate from new features/functionality (exactly what Mozilla isn't doing), we're obligated to upgrade.
[/quote]
This is exactly what has happened. 1Password MAS is a separate entity, and I and others have stated clearly that we will continue to support non-MAS 1Password. We're here for you. <img src='http://forum.agilebits.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />Flag 0
This discussion has been closed.