1Password ONLY from App Store?

Ben

Hi David,



1) 1Password 4 may still be a ways out. We needed to get 1Password into the app store now, for a variety of reasons. We did this to try and be as fair as possible, but admittedly you are going into the v4 upgrade mostly blind (granted, you don't actually have to upgrade when the time comes).



2) Addressed here: [url="http://forum.agilebits.com/index.php?/topic/8068-official-answers-1password-and-the-mac-app-store/"]OFFICIAL ANSWERS: 1Password and the Mac App Store[/url] (question #1)

lhotka

[quote name='bwoodruff' timestamp='1315578282' post='46394']



I'll give you one.



We can spend more time making the software awesome and less dealing with licensing, server, and payment processing issues. <img src='http://forum.agilebits.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

[/quote]



I'll grant you that one (I've a small business as well, and those are a PITA). But when the reason I'm looking at changing my store is to *increase* the number of customers who can buy my products, not decrease them.



Did you guys even discuss the number of customers you'd lose by making it MAS-only? If so, fine, then as I've said before, it's a business decision. If not, then perhaps it's time to re-evaluate that decision.

Ben

[quote name='lhotka' timestamp='1315578601' post='46402']

By then it'll be too late - once a customer spends the time and money to migrate, they won't come back. Given the current quality problems (particularly with the browser plugins), your timing is pretty poor - it probably gives many folks (myself included) the push to start looking.

[/quote]



We don't know if we don't try it, and we had to do something. <img src='http://forum.agilebits.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />



[quote name='lhotka' timestamp='1315578601' post='46402']

I keep hearing that 3.8 isn't going anywhere, and yet there was a statement that future mobile versions won't work with it. Given that the mobile app crashes repeatedly at the moment, I'll have to take the upgrade to fix that. Likewise with the browser plugins - we're all going to have to take upgrades to get those new versions, but when will they cutover to support 3.8/4.0 only? There's also no clear statement on what 'support' for 3.8 means.



So let me ask this clearly: Is Agile going to 'fork' 3.8, the browser plugins, and the current mobile app, and provide security/bug fixes for those versions (in parallel with 3.9/4.0)? If so, for how long?

[/quote]



As always, we're not ever going to revoke someone's license for an older version of 1Password. If you chose to stick with 3.8 (or 3.9, or whatever), we'll do our best to help you. At some point development will stop on those versions, except for security fixes. We won't generally add support for new browsers to old versions. "Supported" means just that, in this context: customer support will help you as much as possible. As for further development, some of those decisions haven't even been made yet.

Ben

[quote name='lhotka' timestamp='1315579021' post='46407']



I'll grant you that one (I've a small business as well, and those are a PITA). But when the reason I'm looking at changing my store is to *increase* the number of customers who can buy my products, not decrease them.



Did you guys even discuss the number of customers you'd lose by making it MAS-only? If so, fine, then as I've said before, it's a business decision. If not, then perhaps it's time to re-evaluate that decision.

[/quote]



The number of customers that we can reach through the MAS is much greater than the number that we can reach without it. The decision to go MAS only, as I understand them, is for reasons of simplification and non-duplication (again, for both you and us).



We'd rather not lose anybody, but unfortunately that is the lifecycle of business. The restrictions in place in the MAS give some customers no choice. We're disappointed about that, but ultimately we need to do what is best for the majority of our customers. We think we are doing that.

lhotka

[quote name='bwoodruff' timestamp='1315579281' post='46411']



We don't know if we don't try it, and we had to do something. <img src='http://forum.agilebits.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />







As always, we're not ever going to revoke someone's license for an older version of 1Password. If you chose to stick with 3.8 (or 3.9, or whatever), we'll do our best to help you. At some point development will stop on those versions, except for security fixes. We won't generally add support for new browsers to old versions. "Supported" means just that, in this context: customer support will help you as much as possible. As for further development, some of those decisions haven't even been made yet.

[/quote]



Given that Mozilla has a new browser every couple of months, I suspect we'll lose Firefox access pretty quickly then. As I mentioned before, and your reason for the change indicates, resources are limited. In the absence of an SLA, I have no choice but to start looking now for an alternative (and I've posted a thread in my internal Mac forum seeking options already). Much like Firefox, I may not find one, at which point I'm stuck waiting for Apple to figure how to to support small business purchases, or you guys to change your policy.

lhotka

[quote name='bwoodruff' timestamp='1315579499' post='46415']



The number of customers that we can reach through the MAS is much greater than the number that we can reach without it. The decision to go MAS only, as I understand them, is for reasons of simplification and non-duplication (again, for both you and us).



We'd rather not lose anybody, but unfortunately that is the lifecycle of business. The restrictions in place in the MAS give some customers no choice. We're disappointed about that, but ultimately we need to do what is best for the majority of our customers. We think we are doing that.

[/quote]



Thanks - that's the most honest response I've heard yet. I know I'm in the minority, as are other business customers. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I can respect a business decision, but many of the other responses tried to tell me my and other business customers' issues weren't valid, and that I should feel chipper about losing access to an application I use on a daily basis (warts and all). It does suck, as I'll now have to spend time and energy (money isn't the issue) to find and migrate to an alternative.



It's important to remember that we don't want to wait until we lose access to migrate - best to do it in advance. Given the surprise dropping of support in the past, I think most users will err on the side of caution.

Maephis

I asked on Twitter but no one replied, can you tell us how long will the discount stay up? Many of us are still on Snow Leopard and don't plan to upgrade until Lion is stable, given that I can't buy it on SL (already tried) at least I'm going to upgrade as late as I can. Thank you.

Ben

[quote name='lhotka' timestamp='1315579943' post='46427']



Thanks - that's the most honest response I've heard yet. I know I'm in the minority, as are other business customers. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I can respect a business decision, but many of the other responses tried to tell me my and other business customers' issues weren't valid, and that I should feel chipper about losing access to an application I use on a daily basis (warts and all). It does suck, as I'll now have to spend time and energy (money isn't the issue) to find and migrate to an alternative.



It's important to remember that we don't want to wait until we lose access to migrate - best to do it in advance. Given the surprise dropping of support in the past, I think most users will err on the side of caution.

[/quote]



I apologize if we made it sound like your concerns weren't legitimate. That certainly was not the intention. I too hope Apple shapes up and starts offering better support for businesses.

kingkaramel

So do I understand you correctly that there will never be a non-MAS version of 3.9+? I'd prefer to keep the current system for various reasons all of which have been discussed here in detail, but I'd buy 3.9 nonetheless. It's just that I would be really disappointed and also angry if you suddenly offered an upgrade to v4 for non-MAS versions...

Ben

At this point our plan is to be MAS only from now on.

ahallam

Just wanted to say that I just bought the upgrade to 3.9 from the MAS. I've been using 1Password since version 2, and can say that I've never had an issue with the I perceive AgileBits treating their customers. Having paid for the upgrade to version 3, I don't think that I was under any assumption that an upgrade to 4 would be free.



The bottom line is that 1Password is great software, and it's make my browsing experience far better. I'm not worried about changing all my passwords when a web site gets hacked, and I don't have to worry about remembering a password for anything other than iTunes. As far as I'm concerned, that's easily worth the price of 1Password.



If I have reservations about the MAS, I'd rather focus them on Apple than blame a bunch of people that are just trying to make and distribute great software. AgileBits, you have my full support.

shinratdr

Can someone at least tell me why saving of the Master Password to the keychain has been removed in the MAS version? I've asked this twice and nobody will answer.

kingkaramel

[quote name='bwoodruff' timestamp='1315580863' post='46451']

At this point our plan is to be MAS only from now on.

[/quote]

Thanks for your quick reply! Since 'at this point' it's not 'definitely never', can you imagine you'd grant non-MAS v4 keys to existing customers who also bought the MAS version? License transfers should work in that direction. <img src='http://forum.agilebits.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />

Ben

[quote name='kingkaramel' timestamp='1315581548' post='46468']

Thanks for your quick reply! Since 'at this point' it's not 'definitely never', can you imagine you'd grant non-MAS v4 keys to existing customers who also bought the MAS version? License transfers should work in that direction. <img src='http://forum.agilebits.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />

[/quote]



I could possibly imagine that, but we would definitely have to cross that bridge first. <img src='http://forum.agilebits.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' /> There are a lot of "what ifs" there.



[quote name='shinratdr' timestamp='1315581544' post='46467']

Can someone at least tell me why saving of the Master Password to the keychain has been removed in the MAS version? I've asked this twice and nobody will answer.

[/quote]



I don't know all the reasons, but from a customer support perspective, that option was a nightmare. People would check it and then forget that they even even had a Master Password. Then they would have all kinds of trouble and data loss. Your Master Password is your encryption key. It is vital that you not forget it or there is absolutely no way to recover your data. Typing it occasionally ensures that folks A) remember that such a thing exists and B ) maybe actually remember what it is.



[quote name='ahallam' timestamp='1315581523' post='46466']

Just wanted to say that I just bought the upgrade to 3.9 from the MAS. I've been using 1Password since version 2, and can say that I've never had an issue with the I perceive AgileBits treating their customers. Having paid for the upgrade to version 3, I don't think that I was under any assumption that an upgrade to 4 would be free.



The bottom line is that 1Password is great software, and it's make my browsing experience far better. I'm not worried about changing all my passwords when a web site gets hacked, and I don't have to worry about remembering a password for anything other than iTunes. As far as I'm concerned, that's easily worth the price of 1Password.



If I have reservations about the MAS, I'd rather focus them on Apple than blame a bunch of people that are just trying to make and distribute great software. AgileBits, you have my full support.

[/quote]



Thanks for the kind words!

lhotka

[quote name='bwoodruff' timestamp='1315580243' post='46436']



I apologize if we made it sound like your concerns weren't legitimate. That certainly was not the intention. I too hope Apple shapes up and starts offering better support for businesses.

[/quote]



I may yet find that there isn't an alternative, at which point I'll have to 1) pay for it out of my own pocket instead of the business, which is unpleasant but not hugely painful - it's not like it's Adobe CS6 <img src='http://forum.agilebits.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/skype_smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':-)' />, and 2) hope that the issues with the store and migrating between machines get solved, or settle for a less functional solution from a competitor - I just don't know yet. The handful of apps I've tried from the MAS don't migrate properly to new machines - I've ended up having to manually copy the files, preferences, etc over, and they don't seem to be able to get updates.



Which brings up a question - will I have to constantly be running the app store to see if there are updates, or will 1P check for those automatically?

harrison

I'm sorry to read that. 1Password MAS only? No!

It's like take it or leave it, so I have to leave.

I'm not interested to switch to Lion, which is for me the worst OSX since 10.0.

MAS prevents quick bugfixes, which is very bad for a product like 1password.

Also there are no options for filtering, organizing updates in the MAS.

This Software Store ist a pain in the ass!

There are other products for keeping my passwords in a safe place, so I will switch to one of them.

I'm not happy about this! <img src='http://forum.agilebits.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':(' />

Ben

[quote name='lhotka' timestamp='1315582234' post='46485']

Which brings up a question - will I have to constantly be running the app store to see if there are updates, or will 1P check for those automatically?

[/quote]



The browser extensions will update automagically, by default. If you turn that option off, then you'll need to check for extension updates within the browser. The app itself will be updated through MAS.

shinratdr

[quote name='bwoodruff' timestamp='1315581804' post='46473']

I don't know all the reasons, but from a customer support perspective, that option was a nightmare. People would check it and then forget that they even even had a Master Password. Then they would have all kinds of trouble and data loss. Your Master Password is your encryption key. It is vital that you not forget it or there is absolutely no way to recover your data. Typing it occasionally ensures that folks A) remember that such a thing exists and B ) maybe actually remember what it is.

[/quote]

So there is no good reason, you guys are just using this opportunity to axe a popular feature because you don't want to support it. Great. That really bodes well for the future.



The legitimate feature removals are bad enough, the fact that you guys are killing features just because you don't want to support them and using this as an oppertunity is way worse. Why can't you guys take an ounce of this feedback remotely seriously? All I see is 100 "I feel you man, but sorry" replies that solve absolutely nothing and only serve to try and placate rightfully angry customers so they go away.

Ben

[quote name='shinratdr' timestamp='1315582676' post='46503']

So there is no good reason, you guys are just using this opportunity to axe a popular feature because you don't want to support it. Great. That really bodes well for the future.



The legitimate feature removals are bad enough, the fact that you guys are killing features just because you don't want to support them and using this as an oppertunity is way worse.

[/quote]



You are taking what I said way out of context.



We're trying to prevent terrible things like data loss.

Curlypaws

I’d just like to say that, while I was surprised when I saw that 1Password was to go MAS-only, I was more than happy to support AgileBits by purchasing from the MAS - and getting the upgrade to v4 included. I can appreciate that some people don’t like the change, but I enjoy the convenience of the App Store.

shinratdr

[quote name='bwoodruff' timestamp='1315582812' post='46506']

You are taking what I said way out of context.

[/quote]

No, I'm shifting it from the support perspective to the customer perspective for you. Supporting this feature may be frustrating, perhaps unbelievably so. So is making long time customers completely change their habits to make support simpler for you. I can't tell you how frustrated I am right now.



[quote name='bwoodruff' timestamp='1315582812' post='46506']

We're trying to prevent terrible things like data loss.

[/quote]

So you're castrating 1Password to simplify things for users that ignore repeated warnings at the expense of existing users? You can make it a Terminal only option if you wish, just put it back! If it's not because of the MAS then getting rid of it now is just using the cloak of confusion to slip it past without people noticing.

Ben

[quote name='Curlypaws' timestamp='1315582913' post='46509']

I’d just like to say that, while I was surprised when I saw that 1Password was to go MAS-only, I was more than happy to support AgileBits by purchasing from the MAS - and getting the upgrade to v4 included. I can appreciate that some people don’t like the change, but I enjoy the convenience of the App Store.

[/quote]



Thanks for the feedback!

desertman

[quote name='binarynomad' timestamp='1315508502' post='45545']

What benefit do you get by using only using the App Store?

[/quote]

... getting more amateur users who don't ask much but just buy and don't criticize anything that comes from Apple and getting rid of many more professional users who don't just believe in beautiful descriptions but start discussions if things don't work. There are no discussions (and censorship instead) in the Apple app store - that's very convenient for a software maker.



I also wonder how Agilebits managed to get so many terrific reviews there in such a short time. Whoever is really using 1Password must encounter some of its current major problems and yet there is only praise and more praise on the app store. That is in very sharp contrast to i. e. macupdate.com. Up to version 3.7 there were almost only positive reviews (and rightly so!), since version 3.8 the vast majority of posts is from people who have problems and are frustrated with the sugarcoating replies from Agilebits. How can that be?

luke1970

The problem with MAS is the slow update interval.

Every 1Password update version must through Apples confirmation process. <img src='http://forum.agilebits.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/skype_sweating.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='(sweat)' />

MrMojoOne

I'm a little confused about this switch to the App Store and how it affects family licenses...



Is there going to be an upgrade path for family licenses? Or must I now purchase individual licenses for each user?



And what should I tell my clients who have purchased individual licenses? Some may have purchased it recently...

Ben

Anyone who purchased within the last 30 days is eligible for a full refund so that they can purchase on the App Store for a lower price (assuming they are using Lion).



Licensing works a little differently on the MAS. Check out FAQ #1:

http://support.apple.com/kb/HT4461

MrMojoOne

Ben, I read the App Store FAQ.



So if I have this right, one license can be used by multiple users on up to five Macs? So there is no longer a need for a family license for multiple users?



And the upcoming upgrade is only available to people using Lion? (i assume that Snow Leopard users can take advantage of the discount price without having to upgrade to 1Password 4 when it is released...) If so, I can see why some folks are complaining. I have Macs running Leopard, Snow Leopard and Lion and I wasn't planning on upgrading the non-Lion Macs anytime soon...

bsoplinger

I'm completely unthrilled about the decision to be MAS only. I've avoided making other upgrades because of this and it seems like another app I won't upgrade.



Of course the Lion only decision is even worse. I, like others, am not upgrading to Lion. Won't ever on at least this machine. I need to run PPC only programs and the loss of Rosetta means no updating to Lion, EVER.



Considering Lion was released less than 45 days ago it seems ridiculous to release Lion only versions of software but then that's just IMHO and its not my company. Heck, if Agile wants to make their program only work on even numbered days they can. But they shouldn't be surprised when people tell them they made a bad decision.



Add in this whole 'we made it cheap now and you can get version 4 for free' debacle, since to buy it requires that one already have Lion and it sure seems like this whole thing was rather poorly thought out.



Now add in the long promised update to the mobile apps, assuming this update will allow saving/creating/editing data in said mobile app, and it only working with "new" versions of the desktop application and it feels like salt being rubbed into the wound.



Considering Agile's said they will still be selling the Windows version outside of the MAS (wonder why they don't require Windoz folks to have Lion <img src='http://forum.agilebits.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' /> they will still have the entire existing architecture in place to allow for non-MAS purchases and will need to keep it in place for Windows sales.



This means a MAS only decision seems really odd since it doesn't simplify anything. Add in all the restrictions that the MAS has: no refunds, long update times, need to run MAS to find out if an update exists, inability to smoothly deal with anything 'out of place' and so on and it makes no sense at all that MAS is better.

bsoplinger

[quote name='MrMojoOne' timestamp='1315586784' post='46570']

Ben, I read the App Store FAQ.



So if I have this right, one license can be used by multiple users on up to five Macs? So there is no longer a need for a family license for multiple users?



And this upgrade is only available to people using Lion? If so, I can see why some folks are complaining. I have Macs running Leopard, Snow Leopard and Lion and I wasn't planning on upgrading the non-Lion Macs anytime soon...

[/quote]



I would think each person of a family would have their own AppleID since each person would have their own music, videos, etc. If this is the case then that family would be stuck buying a separate license for each person. If however every person in the family used the same AppleID for music, etc then they could all run off of the same single purchase.



The limit of the upgrade to Lion isn't limiting because Agile has said all future releases of 1p will be Lion only programs. So that Snow Leopard machine couldn't run a new release. Neither could that Leopard machine.

Automated Reply

I understand that Agile can't control the length of Apple's MAS approval process, but it seems like you guys could have given us users a little more heads up on your plans.



I follow 1Password on Twitter, and I have to say that announcing the availability of 3.8.5 and then following that only 2 hours later with a reference to 3.9 in the MAS is a bit confusing, especially when the 3.8.5 app shows no new upgrade available.



The other thing is, even though I already have 1Password 3.x, and have no problem with the idea of paying $20 for 1Password 3.x from the MAS in order to get 4.0 for free, I have no idea what 4.0 is even going to be. How do I know that I even want it?



Speculative software releases with vague promises of must-have, but unknown new features are a tough-sell for many of us. (It's one of the reasons I passed on switching to Pixelmator in the MAS.) Especially when users are having issues with the current version. We want to know it's going to be not only more than a bug-fix, but a definite improvement from what we already have, to the point of paying for it.



Could you at least give us a tiny bit of insight into what you have planned for 1Password 4.0 (a blog post or something)?